Re: Question about Audio Buffer/Timing
Bob Arning <[email protected]> Thu, 22 Feb 2018 15:03:01 -0500
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.lang.smalltalk.squeak.squeakland |
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============8015814789760307358== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4A9EAA538C971C3810C72B04" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4A9EAA538C971C3810C72B04 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm not enough of a musician to really know if it's behaving or not. These are drums, so it's not a continuous sound. When I set the script to ticking, I do hear an occasional glitch that my well be due to garbage collection -- it's possible that tweaking some gc parameters might reduce this. Perhaps a youtube posting with the sound you are hearing would let me compare it to what I'm hearing. On 2/22/18 2:33 PM, Jeremy Landry wrote: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JlCCtHLHDk I forgot to post this in > the last message showing the more stable timing done with 'pure' > squeak classes/methods. > > On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Jeremy Landry <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nJlQ4huXcKZmTm6GADl40ZrWAEd7Kv97/view?usp=sharing > <https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nJlQ4huXcKZmTm6GADl40ZrWAEd7Kv97/view?usp=sharing> > > This is a demo of the problem for ETOYS 5 (along with some other > stuff there that shows what I've looked into, to some degree). > Hitting play on the scriptor, you will hear a sequence that has > awful timing. I don't expect 'sample perfect', zero latency or > anything spectacular, but it would seem that if there's timers in > the system, everything should adhere to it, or else not be called > timers and something like, 'when-we-get-around-to-its'. This video > here demonstrates that Squeak, at least, can do timing just fine > and older versions have midi demos, but again, I'm using Etoys for > a specific reason, so it's confusing me as to why the delays happen... > > Both sequencers are mouse interactive and playing with the script > timer and setting blocks on/off can reveal this hidden > metronome...maybe that IS the buffer? I'm not sure...what's most > puzzling is that sometimes it will sound right, and sometimes it > won't...even if it wasn't correct, I'd probably be okay if it was > consistently incorrect because I can actually work with > consistency, so I guess if nothing else, that's what I'm trying to > figure out how to get without making tile usage unavailable for a > sequencer built on etoys tiles... > > Thanks for all the efforts so far...I did notice some changing in > the timing when I checked the preference there but also unchecked > the preference of stopSoundsWhenDone, just in case it was > hiccuping by shutting down the sound stream then making a new one. > It didn't help, but I had forgotten about these preferences. > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 10:57 AM, Bob Arning > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > There do seem to be some platform issues as to whether this > will really work. Some things you could do: > > - check the value of the Preference for #soundQuickStart -- > make it true if not already > > - put some code into the SoundPlayer method to tell you if > quickStart is being requested and if not honored, why > > > On 2/22/18 1:22 PM, Jeremy Landry wrote: >> Thanks for the crossover. I am subscribed, but generally shy >> away from posting there as it seems out of my league and my >> main interest is in Etoys since, well, again, leagues and all >> that. I know just enough ST to break things, not build >> them! :) >> >> So using the code from this message from Bob Arning: >> *Bob Arning*arning315 at >> comcast.net<mailto:squeak-dev%40lists.squeakfoundation.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5Bsqueak-dev%5D%20%5Bsqueakland%5D%20Question%20about%20Audio%20Buffer/Timing&In-Reply-To=%3C269cdd30-7c77-6cab-22aa-591eee543b21%40comcast.net%3E> >> /Thu Feb 22 15:49:07 UTC 2018/ >> >> * Previous message:[squeak-dev] [squeakland] Question about >> Audio Buffer/Timing >> <http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2018-February/197505.html> >> * Next message:[squeak-dev] [squeakland] Question about >> Audio Buffer/Timing >> <http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2018-February/197509.html> >> * *Messages sorted by:*[ date ] >> <http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2018-February/date.html#197508>[ >> thread ] >> <http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2018-February/thread.html#197508>[ >> subject ] >> <http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2018-February/subject.html#197508>[ >> author ] >> <http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2018-February/author.html#197508> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> SoundPlayer class gives a clue: >> >> resumePlaying: aSound quickStart: quickStart >> "Start playing the given sound without resetting it; it will resume >> playing from where it last stopped. If quickStart is true, then try to >> start playing the given sound immediately." >> >> Just looking at it and taking a guess, it doesn't seem to be >> *quite* the thing I was looking for. I was thinking there's >> a method/class variable with a value that could be changed to >> affect the system, rather than 'poking in' every thing I want >> to play when I want to play it individually because the >> ultimate effect is that Etoys PLAYSOUND:SOUND tile will work >> as normal and this seems that it would have to be used >> instead of the tiles...I have no idea if this is possible, >> but I'll also dig around the class browser in Etoys, maybe >> I'll stumble into something, but so far, as I noted, I only >> found the sound-buffer and sample rates, not the imposed >> delay method that I remember reading about. I remember the >> reasoning it was put in was to prevent accidental playing of >> sounds inside of a single-frame repeat-tile...i.e. a repeat >> tile with any value other than 1 and inside of it having a >> playsound:sound tile would overload the speakers and make >> nasty noises because so many things are playing on top of >> each other. I actually WANT this. Based on how sound plays >> now, you can hear an 'invisible' metronome that makes sure >> all sounds are separated and equally spaced apart and in the >> case of repeat tiles, only seems to accept the last sound as >> valid/playable. >> >> Thanks for the help so far! I'm not expecting a solution >> because I don't know if one exists, but my thought is 'if it >> was done, it can be undone'...and just looking at how to undo >> it! :p >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 9:59 AM, David T. Lewis >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> There is some follow up discussion happening on the >> squeak-dev list. I don't >> know if it helps, but you can read the posts here if you >> are not subscribed to >> that list: >> >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2018-February/197508.html >> <http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2018-February/197508.html> >> >> HTH, >> Dave >> >> On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 10:27:18AM -0500, David T. Lewis >> wrote: >> > Hi Jeremy, >> > >> > I am copying this to the squeak-dev list in case >> someone there can offer >> > some guidance. >> > >> > Dave >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 02:44:21PM -0800, Jeremy Landry >> wrote: >> > > Hi, I made a quick audio sequencer test in Etoys and >> found that there's a >> > > hidden 'timer' that limits the responsiveness of new >> sounds that go into >> > > the playback buffer (terminology isn't accurate, but >> hopefully it makes >> > > sense to people). >> > > >> > > I found the sound buffer setting, but was wondering >> if there's something >> > > else that limits how fast new sounds get added to the >> playback stream? I >> > > read somewhere (old-man-aphasia here) that some code >> was added to prevent >> > > overloading the buffer so surely there's a snippet of >> code I could add to a >> > > project to reverse this, if it's what is causing the >> delay? >> > > >> > > Thanks for any help finding the solution. >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > squeakland mailing list >> > > squeakland-bD51WKytQuId/fn+uklp/[email protected] >> <mailto:squeakland-bD51WKytQuId/fn+uklp/[email protected]> >> > > >> http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland >> <http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > squeakland mailing list >> > squeakland-bD51WKytQuId/fn+uklp/[email protected] >> <mailto:squeakland-bD51WKytQuId/fn+uklp/[email protected]> >> > http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland >> <http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> squeakland mailing list >> squeakland-bD51WKytQuId/fn+uklp/[email protected] >> <mailto:squeakland-bD51WKytQuId/fn+uklp/[email protected]> >> http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland >> <http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland> > > > _______________________________________________ > squeakland mailing list > squeakland-bD51WKytQuId/fn+uklp/[email protected] > <mailto:squeakland-bD51WKytQuId/fn+uklp/[email protected]> > http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland > <http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland> > > > --------------4A9EAA538C971C3810C72B04 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <html> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> </head> <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> <p><font face="Georgia">I'm not enough of a musician to really know if it's behaving or not. These are drums, so it's not a continuous sound. When I set the script to ticking, I do hear an occasional glitch that my well be due to garbage collection -- it's possible that tweaking some gc parameters might reduce this. Perhaps a youtube posting with the sound you are hearing would let me compare it to what I'm hearing.</font><br> </p> <br> <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/22/18 2:33 PM, Jeremy Landry wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAMYa41nhM77kxadLZjx4P2sBnPe5P5rH1416QtG3hW0cbQqLag-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org"> <div dir="ltr"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JlCCtHLHDk" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JlCCtHLHDk</a> I forgot to post this in the last message showing the more stable timing done with 'pure' squeak classes/methods.<br> </div> <div class="gmail_extra"><br> <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Jeremy Landry <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:[email protected]" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">[email protected]</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div dir="ltr"><a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nJlQ4huXcKZmTm6GADl40ZrWAEd7Kv97/view?usp=sharing" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://drive.google.com/file/<wbr>d/<wbr>1nJlQ4huXcKZmTm6GADl40ZrWAEd7K<wbr>v97/view?usp=sharing</a><br> <div><br> </div> <div>This is a demo of the problem for ETOYS 5 (along with some other stuff there that shows what I've looked into, to some degree). Hitting play on the scriptor, you will hear a sequence that has awful timing. I don't expect 'sample perfect', zero latency or anything spectacular, but it would seem that if there's timers in the system, everything should adhere to it, or else not be called timers and something like, 'when-we-get-around-to-its'. This video here demonstrates that Squeak, at least, can do timing just fine and older versions have midi demos, but again, I'm using Etoys for a specific reason, so it's confusing me as to why the delays happen...</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Both sequencers are mouse interactive and playing with the script timer and setting blocks on/off can reveal this hidden metronome...maybe that IS the buffer? I'm not sure...what's most puzzling is that sometimes it will sound right, and sometimes it won't...even if it wasn't correct, I'd probably be okay if it was consistently incorrect because I can actually work with consistency, so I guess if nothing else, that's what I'm trying to figure out how to get without making tile usage unavailable for a sequencer built on etoys tiles...</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Thanks for all the efforts so far...I did notice some changing in the timing when I checked the preference there but also unchecked the preference of stopSoundsWhenDone, just in case it was hiccuping by shutting down the sound stream then making a new one. It didn't help, but I had forgotten about these preferences.</div> <div><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div> </div> <div><br> </div> <div><br> </div> </div> <div class="HOEnZb"> <div class="h5"> <div class="gmail_extra"><br> <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 10:57 AM, Bob Arning <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:[email protected]" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">[email protected]</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> <p><font face="Georgia">There do seem to be some platform issues as to whether this will really work. Some things you could do:</font></p> <p><font face="Georgia">- check the value of the Preference for #soundQuickStart -- make it true if not already</font></p> <p><font face="Georgia">- put some code into the SoundPlayer method to tell you if quickStart is being requested and if not honored, why</font><br> </p> <div> <div class="m_-1939768682591439961h5"> <br> <div class="m_-1939768682591439961m_4959563591284099764moz-cite-prefix">On 2/22/18 1:22 PM, Jeremy Landry wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote type="cite"> <div dir="ltr">Thanks for the crossover. I am subscribed, but generally shy away from posting there as it seems out of my league and my main interest is in Etoys since, well, again, leagues and all that. I know just enough ST to break things, not build them! :) <div><br> </div> <div>So using the code from this message from Bob Arning:</div> <div> <b>Bob Arning</b><span><span> </span></span><a href="mailto:squeak-dev%40lists.squeakfoundation.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5Bsqueak-dev%5D%20%5Bsqueakland%5D%20Question%20about%20Audio%20Buffer/Timing&In-Reply-To=%3C269cdd30-7c77-6cab-22aa-591eee543b21%40comcast.net%3E" title="[squeak-dev] [squeakland] Question about Audio Buffer/Timing" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">arning315 at comcast.net<span> </span></a><br> <i>Thu Feb 22 15:49:07 UTC 2018</i><span></span> <ul> <li>Previous message:<span> </span><a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2018-February/197505.html" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">[squeak-dev] [squeakland] Question about Audio Buffer/Timing</a></li> <li>Next message:<span> </span><a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2018-February/197509.html" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">[squeak-dev] [squeakland] Question about Audio Buffer/Timing</a></li> <li><b>Messages sorted by:</b><span> </span><a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2018-February/date.html#197508" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">[ date ]</a><span> </span><a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2018-February/thread.html#197508" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">[ thread ]</a><span> </span><a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2018-February/subject.html#197508" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">[ subject ]</a><span> </span><a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2018-February/author.html#197508" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">[ author ]</a></li> </ul> <hr> <pre style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">SoundPlayer class gives a clue: resumePlaying: aSound quickStart: quickStart "Start playing the given sound without resetting it; it will resume playing from where it last stopped. If quickStart is true, then try to start playing the given sound immediately." </pre> <br class="m_-1939768682591439961m_4959563591284099764gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"> Just looking at it and taking a guess, it doesn't seem to be *quite* the thing I was looking for. I was thinking there's a method/class variable with a value that could be changed to affect the system, rather than 'poking in' every thing I want to play when I want to play it individually because the ultimate effect is that Etoys PLAYSOUND:SOUND tile will work as normal and this seems that it would have to be used instead of the tiles...I have no idea if this is possible, but I'll also dig around the class browser in Etoys, maybe I'll stumble into something, but so far, as I noted, I only found the sound-buffer and sample rates, not the imposed delay method that I remember reading about. I remember the reasoning it was put in was to prevent accidental playing of sounds inside of a single-frame repeat-tile...i.e. a repeat tile with any value other than 1 and inside of it having a playsound:sound tile would overload the speakers and make nasty noises because so many things are playing on top of each other. I actually WANT this. Based on how sound plays now, you can hear an 'invisible' metronome that makes sure all sounds are separated and equally spaced apart and in the case of repeat tiles, only seems to accept the last sound as valid/playable.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Thanks for the help so far! I'm not expecting a solution because I don't know if one exists, but my thought is 'if it was done, it can be undone'...and just looking at how to undo it! :p </div> <div><br> </div> <div><br> </div> </div> <div class="gmail_extra"><br> <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 9:59 AM, David T. Lewis <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:[email protected]" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">[email protected]</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">There is some follow up discussion happening on the squeak-dev list. I don't<br> know if it helps, but you can read the posts here if you are not subscribed to<br> that list:<br> <br> <a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2018-February/197508.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.squeakfoundation.<wbr>org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2018-<wbr>February/197508.html</a><br> <br> HTH,<br> Dave<br> <div class="m_-1939768682591439961m_4959563591284099764HOEnZb"> <div class="m_-1939768682591439961m_4959563591284099764h5"><br> On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 10:27:18AM -0500, David T. Lewis wrote:<br> > Hi Jeremy,<br> ><br> > I am copying this to the squeak-dev list in case someone there can offer<br> > some guidance.<br> ><br> > Dave<br> ><br> ><br> > On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 02:44:21PM -0800, Jeremy Landry wrote:<br> > > Hi, I made a quick audio sequencer test in Etoys and found that there's a<br> > > hidden 'timer' that limits the responsiveness of new sounds that go into<br> > > the playback buffer (terminology isn't accurate, but hopefully it makes<br> > > sense to people).<br> > ><br> > > I found the sound buffer setting, but was wondering if there's something<br> > > else that limits how fast new sounds get added to the playback stream? I<br> > > read somewhere (old-man-aphasia here) that some code was added to prevent<br> > > overloading the buffer so surely there's a snippet of code I could add to a<br> > > project to reverse this, if it's what is causing the delay?<br> > ><br> > > Thanks for any help finding the solution.<br> ><br> > > ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br> > > squeakland mailing list<br> > > <a href="mailto:squeakland-bD51WKytQuId/fn+uklp/[email protected]" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">squeakland-bD51WKytQuId/fn+uklp/[email protected]<wbr>g</a><br> > > <a href="http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.squeakland.org/ma<wbr>ilman/listinfo/squeakland</a><br> ><br> > ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br> > squeakland mailing list<br> > <a href="mailto:squeakland-bD51WKytQuId/fn+uklp/[email protected]" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">squeakland-bD51WKytQuId/fn+uklp/[email protected]<wbr>g</a><br> > <a href="http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.squeakland.org/ma<wbr>ilman/listinfo/squeakland</a><br> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> <br> </div> <br> <fieldset class="m_-1939768682591439961m_4959563591284099764mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset> <br> <pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________ squeakland mailing list <a class="m_-1939768682591439961m_4959563591284099764moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:squeakland-bD51WKytQuId/fn+uklp/[email protected]" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">squeakland-bD51WKytQuId/fn+uklp/[email protected]<wbr>g</a> <a class="m_-1939768682591439961m_4959563591284099764moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.squeakland.org/ma<wbr>ilman/listinfo/squeakland</a> </pre> </blockquote> <br> </div> </div> </div> <br> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br> squeakland mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:squeakland-bD51WKytQuId/fn+uklp/[email protected]" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">squeakland-bD51WKytQuId/fn+uklp/[email protected]<wbr>g</a><br> <a href="http://lists.squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.squeakland.org/ma<wbr>ilman/listinfo/squeakland</a><br> <br> </blockquote> </div> <br> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> <br> </div> </blockquote> <br> </body> </html> --------------4A9EAA538C971C3810C72B04-- --===============8015814789760307358== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18Kc3F1ZWFrbGFu ZCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKc3F1ZWFrbGFuZEBsaXN0cy5zcXVlYWtsYW5kLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vbGlz dHMuc3F1ZWFrbGFuZC5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9zcXVlYWtsYW5kCg== --===============8015814789760307358==--