Re: on the irresponsibility of pursuing C language reform

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On Sat, Aug 1, 2026 at 5:22=E2=80=AFPM Alejandro Colomar <[email protected]> w=
rote:

> WG14, like WG21, has a problem.  Consensus, these days, is taken as
> roughly a majority of votes.
>
> With very few exceptions, here's the rule that guides consensus in straw
> polls during committee meetings:
>
>                 // Consensus requires both
>                 //      y/(y+n)   >=3D 2/3
>                 //      n/(y+n+a) <=3D 1/4
>

That formula seems to require a bit more than, as you put it, "roughly a
majority of votes", but whatever.


> Strong opposition is dismissed as long as the numbers are okay.


Strong opposition seems to exist for your proposed man page changes, yet
you are still pushing them.  Is it magically not a problem when it is
something you want?


> Nevin has an undeclared conflict of interest:  He is the author of a
> proposal for WG14 to remove strncpy(3).
> <https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n3935.htm>
>

Yes, the paper represents my technical opinion on strncpy.  Writing a
publicly accessible paper is pretty much the opposite of "undeclared".  As
for a conflict of interest (instead of just, say, an interest in):


> Also, he didn't really give any technical reasons; he just voted no.
>

What I wrote in the "[PATCH 1/2] man/man3/{mem,strn}*(): SYNOPSIS,
STANDARDS: Document these as provided by <memory.h>" thread (adding the
context for that message in between the square brackets):

As a WG14 member, it's none of my business what a particular project wants
to do with its documentation.  That really is between them and their users.

From my "just some person on the Internet" perspective, I agree with Joseph
Myers [in that I agree it's irresponsible to use the man-pages project to
promote personal idiosyncratic ideas like this in preference to what's been
the
standard location of functions since 1989].


I stated my opinion, but I don't see where I voted for or against
anything.  I wasn't aware I even had a vote here (and I'm still not aware
that I do).


> A vote without reasons is still heard, but easily dismissed.
>

If you just wanted to easily dismiss my opinion, why did you Cc me in the
first place?  And I still don't know what vote you are talking about.

Since apparently I have to declare this: I am not a part of the projects
encompassing linux-man, bug-gnulib or libc-alpha (I think that covers all
the mailing lists you sent this to so far).  Feel free to weigh my comments
accordingly (or not, because again, I'm not a part of those organizations).
--=20
 Nevin ":-)" Liber  <mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>=
>
+1-847-691-1404

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Sat, Aug 1, 2026 at 5:22=E2=
=80=AFPM Alejandro Colomar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"=
_blank">[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">WG14, like WG21, has a pro=
blem.=C2=A0 Consensus, these days, is taken as<br>
roughly a majority of votes.<br>
<br>
With very few exceptions, here&#39;s the rule that guides consensus in stra=
w<br>
polls during committee meetings:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 // Consensus requir=
es both<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 //=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 y/(y+n)=C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=3D 2/3<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 //=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 n/(y+n+a) &lt;=3D 1/4<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That formula =
seems to require a bit more than, as you put it, &quot;roughly a majority o=
f votes&quot;, but whatever.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex">Strong opposition is dismissed as long as the num=
bers are okay.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Strong opposition seems to e=
xist for your proposed man page changes, yet you are still pushing them.=C2=
=A0 Is it magically not a problem when it is something you want?</div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Nevin has an =
undeclared conflict of interest:=C2=A0 He is the author of a<br>
proposal for WG14 to remove strncpy(3).<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n3935.htm" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg1=
4/www/docs/n3935.htm</a>&gt;<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, the p=
aper represents my technical opinion on <font face=3D"monospace">strncpy</f=
ont>.=C2=A0 Writing a publicly accessible paper is pretty much the opposite=
 of &quot;undeclared&quot;.=C2=A0 As for a conflict of interest (instead of=
 just, say, an interest in):</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex">
Also, he didn&#39;t really give any technical reasons; he just voted no.<br=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>What I wrote in the &quot;[PATCH 1/2] man=
/man3/{mem,strn}*(): SYNOPSIS, STANDARDS: Document these as provided by &lt=
;memory.h&gt;&quot; thread (adding the context for that message in between =
the square brackets):</div><div><br></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div>As a WG14 member, it&#39;s none of my=C2=A0busine=
ss what a particular project wants to do with its documentation.=C2=A0 That=
 really is between them and their users.</div></div></div></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div></div></div=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>From=
 my &quot;just some person on the Internet&quot; perspective, I agree with =
Joseph Myers [in that I agree it&#39;s irresponsible to use the man-pages p=
roject to promote personal idiosyncratic ideas like this in preference to w=
hat&#39;s been the<span>=C2=A0</span></div>standard location of functions s=
ince 1989].</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><=
font color=3D"#888888"></font><br></div><div>I stated my opinion, but I don=
&#39;t see where I voted for or against anything.=C2=A0 I wasn&#39;t aware =
I even had a vote here (and I&#39;m still not aware that I do).</div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
A vote without reasons is still heard, but easily dismissed.<br></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div>If you just wanted to easily dismiss my opinion, why =
did you Cc me in the first place?=C2=A0 And I still don&#39;t know what vot=
e you are talking about.</div><div><br></div><div>Since apparently I have t=
o declare this: I am not a part of the projects encompassing linux-man,=C2=
=A0bug-gnulib or libc-alpha (I think that covers all the mailing lists you =
sent this to so far).=C2=A0 Feel free to weigh my comments accordingly (or =
not, because again, I&#39;m not a part of those organizations).</div></div>=
<span class=3D"gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0Nevin &quot;:-)&quot; Liber=C2=
=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">=
[email protected]</a>&gt;=C2=A0 +1-847-691-1404<br></div></div></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

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