Re: IMPORTANT: Migrating away from mailing list

Mason Wheeler <[email protected]> Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:46:24 +0000 (UTC)
Newsgroups gmane.comp.lib.sdl
Message-ID <[email protected]> 
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When this came up a while ago, I mentioned that I had previous experience w=
ith Discourse and it was a huge mess, and it sure looked like you and Sam a=
cknowledged it and said thanks for the warning.
Since it looks like that warning wasn't heard, please let me reiterate: I d=
on't deny that there are serious, severe problems with the current mailing =
list, but if you forge ahead with Discourse as the solution, you will just =
be trading one set of serious problems for another.=C2=A0 When another comm=
unity I'm part of switched to Discourse, we found this out the hard way.
It has huge architecture and scalability problems that you won't notice ear=
ly on, but will bite you in the butt once you get going.
XSS/XSRF vulnerabilities galore.=C2=A0 (You say the current forum has secur=
ity issues?=C2=A0 Discourse is no better!)

The front-end is so sloppy that attempting to run it on a mobile phone will=
 literally cause your phone to heat up in your hand as if you were playing =
a high-end game.
The team is *exceptionally* unprofessional and actively hostile to bug repo=
rts, to the point where Jeff Atwood personally made a point of banning anyb=
ody from our community who reported bugs in Discourse, simply because we we=
re finding too many and making him and his software look bad.
Speaking of Jeff Atwood, even though he was not a member of our community, =
he took it upon himself to use a developer's backdoor to set up a special a=
dministrator account on our community and go through policing things, arbit=
rarily moving posts from one category to another because he felt it fit bet=
ter there, to the point where "Jeffing" became a verb among us meaning "mod=
erator action to move a post to another thread/category".=C2=A0 I can't hel=
p but think this behavior would be completely unacceptable for the SDL foru=
m.

I cannot emphasize this strongly enough: if you switch over to Discourse, w=
e will all end up regretting it.=C2=A0 I agree that we need a better forum =
software, but please, please, find something less toxic!
Mason

      From: Ryan C. Gordon <[email protected]>
 To: SDL Development List <[email protected]>=20
 Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 9:52 PM
 Subject: [SDL] IMPORTANT: Migrating away from mailing list
  =20

tl;dr: We're going to try to move the mailing list and web forums to a=20
new piece of software. Please go to https://discourse.libsdl.org/ and=20
claim your account. You can still use it as a mailing list or a web=20
forum. This list will (probably) be going away soon.


So this is an experiment with Discourse (https://discourse.org/), to see=20
if we can solve our mailing list and forum woes:

Problems we currently have:
- The forum software is wildly out of date, and couldn't be upgraded=20
without losing the email bridge. Upgrading the software breaks a=20
fundamental feature we rely on, not upgrading it is a massive security=20
risk. We tried--and failed--to move the web server to PHP7; the forums=20
needed massive work to just run at all. Serious problems, like not being=20
able to register an account or post a reply, were failing silently, so=20
we could never be sure if we ever really had fixed it up completely. For=20
now we have dropped the web server back to PHP5, but being trapped on=20
old versions of basic software to support old versions of custom=20
software is doubly bad.
- The spammers on the forums were brutal; they couldn't actually post=20
because we had to approve the accounts, but they'd just flood our SMTP=20
server with backscatter trying to make thousands of accounts, all day long.
- We have to manually approve forum accounts in the first place.=C2=A0 :/
- The mailing list was unreliable, and would lose mail, lose the=20
archives, etc. This was largely a problem with the list provider and not=20
mailing lists in general, but migrating somewhere more reliable was=20
non-trivial, so changing direction entirely was a reasonable option if=20
we had to do that.
- The glue that bridges between the mailing list and the forums was not=20
great in general.


As I see it, these are the primary benefits of Discourse for us:
- It runs on our server.
- Is well-maintained and constantly improving open source, concerned=20
with what modern Internet communication looks like (silly things like=20
Emoji and Gravatar, really important things like Unicode and REST APIs=20
and downloadable archives of your posts, etc).
- Is one central place where all communications happen.
- If you like the mailing list, you can use it exclusively through email.
- If you like the web forums, you can use it exclusively through a web=20
browser.
- If you want to use it through the web interface and occasionally shoot=20
off a quick reply by email, you can do that too.
- The web interface looks modern and responsive, with all that AJAX-y=20
goodness. It runs well and looks good on mobile devices, too.
- It has all our email archives imported! After a lot of manual cleanup=20
and one-off perl scripts, all the existing mailing list content, all the=20
way back to _1998_ has been turned into Discourse topics with threading=20
intact. More than 20,000 topics, more than 100,000 posts!
- It has all the old forum posts imported too, thanks to a lot of manual=20
cleanup and one-off perl (and PHP!) scripts.
- It has all the users (more than 2000!) imported. We took efforts to=20
try to merge people that posted from different email addresses over the=20
years into one account, using the latest email address we saw, and deal=20
with people that used both the forums and mailing list interchangeably=20
over the years.
- An actual search function that works.
- Lots of bells and whistles and control over everything...not just as=20
an administrator, but as a user, so you get the experience just how you=20
like it.


So we're going to give it a little time and see if we can turn off the=20
existing list and forums. So that we don't end up with two separate=20
communities, we're going to make this decision pretty quickly. As such,=20
if you have problems (including a generic "I hate this"), please speak=20
up loudly as soon as possible.

To get started: Go to https://discourse.libsdl.org/

If you sign up for an account and it thinks your email is already in=20
use, we probably generated a user for you when the list archives were=20
imported. Just tell it your forgot your password and it'll email you a=20
reset link so you can take control of the account. In this case, we=20
assigned you a best-guess username, but you can change it yourself once=20
you log in.

If you exclusively used the web forums, we have an account for you but=20
not your email: hit me up and I can hand the account over to you, or you=20
can just make a new one, if you like.

If you want to use Discourse as a mailing list and never see the website=20
again, you can; there is an option to turn on "Mailing List Mode" in=20
your user prefs. New topics can be started by writing to=20
[email protected], or you reply to the address on whatever email=20
you want to reply to, and it ends up in the right place.

If you have trouble, we can fix things (including getting you a username=20
from a legacy account, assigning ownership of old posts to a new=20
account, etc). Just let me know!

--ryan.
_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org


  =20
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<html><head></head><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; f=
ont-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font=
-size:13px">When this came up a while ago, I mentioned that I had previous =
experience with Discourse and it was a huge mess, and it sure looked like y=
ou and Sam acknowledged it and said thanks for the warning.<br><div id=3D"y=
ui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_9908"><span></span></div><div class=3D"qtdSeparat=
eBR" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_9909"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711=
477661_10169">Since it looks like that warning wasn't heard, please let me =
reiterate: I don't deny that there are serious, severe problems with the cu=
rrent mailing list, but <b>if you forge ahead with Discourse as the solutio=
n, you will just be trading one set of serious problems for another.</b>&nb=
sp; When another community I'm part of switched to Discourse, we found this=
 out the hard way.</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_10190"><br></=
div><div>It has huge architecture and scalability problems that you won't n=
otice early on, but will bite you in the butt once you get going.</div><div=
 id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_10191"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_=
1490711477661_10168">XSS/XSRF vulnerabilities galore.&nbsp; (You say the cu=
rrent forum has security issues?&nbsp; Discourse is no better!)<br></div><d=
iv id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_10106"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_=
1_1490711477661_10107">The front-end is so sloppy that attempting to run it=
 on a mobile phone will literally cause your phone to heat up in your hand =
as if you were playing a high-end game.</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_149071=
1477661_10192"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_10193">The t=
eam is *exceptionally* unprofessional and actively hostile to bug reports, =
to the point where Jeff Atwood personally made a point of banning anybody f=
rom our community who reported bugs in Discourse, simply because we were fi=
nding too many and making him and his software look bad.</div><div id=3D"yu=
i_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_10359"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0=
_1_1490711477661_10531">Speaking of Jeff Atwood, even though he was not a m=
ember of our community, he took it upon himself to use a developer's backdo=
or to set up a special administrator account on our community and go throug=
h policing things, arbitrarily moving posts from one category to another be=
cause he felt it fit better there, to the point where "Jeffing" became a ve=
rb among us meaning "moderator action to move a post to another thread/cate=
gory".&nbsp; I can't help but think this behavior would be completely unacc=
eptable for the SDL forum.<br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_1=
0330"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_10329">I =
cannot emphasize this strongly enough: if you switch over to Discourse, we =
will all end up regretting it.&nbsp; I agree that we need a better forum so=
ftware, but please, <i>please,</i> find something less toxic!</div><div dir=
=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_10327"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_10328">Mason<br></div><br></div><div clas=
s=3D"yahoo_quoted" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_9803" style=3D"display:=
 block;">  <div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Luc=
ida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_=
9802"> <div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,=
 Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_149=
0711477661_9801"> <div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_9800"> =
<font id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_10010" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"> <h=
r id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_10009" size=3D"1"> <b><span style=3D"fon=
t-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Ryan C. Gordon &lt;[email protected]&gt;=
<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> SDL Development L=
ist &lt;[email protected]&gt; <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;"=
>Sent:</span></b> Monday, March 27, 2017 9:52 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font=
-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> [SDL] IMPORTANT: Migrating away from ma=
iling list<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container" id=3D"yui_3_16=
_0_1_1490711477661_9840"><br><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477=
661_9839"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_9841"=
>tl;dr: We're going to try to move the mailing list and web forums to a <br=
></div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_10008">new piece o=
f software. Please go to <a href=3D"https://discourse.libsdl.org/" target=
=3D"_blank">https://discourse.libsdl.org/ </a>and <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr=
" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_9988">claim your account. You can still =
use it as a mailing list or a web <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16=
_0_1_1490711477661_9989">forum. This list will (probably) be going away soo=
n.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_10007"><br></=
div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_10006"><br></div><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_9990">So this is an experimen=
t with Discourse (<a href=3D"https://discourse.org/" target=3D"_blank" id=
=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_10011">https://discourse.org/</a>), to see <=
br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_9991">if we can =
solve our mailing list and forum woes:<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_=
3_16_0_1_1490711477661_10005"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1=
_1490711477661_9992">Problems we currently have:<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_10012">- The forum software is wildly out =
of date, and couldn't be upgraded <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16=
_0_1_1490711477661_9993">without losing the email bridge. Upgrading the sof=
tware breaks a <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_=
9994">fundamental feature we rely on, not upgrading it is a massive securit=
y <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_10013">risk. =
We tried--and failed--to move the web server to PHP7; the forums <br></div>=
<div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_10004">needed massive wor=
k to just run at all. Serious problems, like not being <br></div><div dir=
=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_9995">able to register an account=
 or post a reply, were failing silently, so <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=
=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1490711477661_10014">we could never be sure if we ever rea=
lly had fixed it up completely. For <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">now we have =
dropped the web server back to PHP5, but being trapped on <br></div><div di=
r=3D"ltr">old versions of basic software to support old versions of custom =
<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">software is doubly bad.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr=
">- The spammers on the forums were brutal; they couldn't actually post <br=
></div><div dir=3D"ltr">because we had to approve the accounts, but they'd =
just flood our SMTP <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">server with backscatter tryi=
ng to make thousands of accounts, all day long.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">-=
 We have to manually approve forum accounts in the first place.&nbsp; :/<br=
></div><div dir=3D"ltr">- The mailing list was unreliable, and would lose m=
ail, lose the <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">archives, etc. This was largely a =
problem with the list provider and not <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">mailing l=
ists in general, but migrating somewhere more reliable was <br></div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">non-trivial, so changing direction entirely was a reasonable opt=
ion if <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">we had to do that.<br></div><div dir=3D"l=
tr">- The glue that bridges between the mailing list and the forums was not=
 <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">great in general.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br=
></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">As I see it, these are t=
he primary benefits of Discourse for us:<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">- It run=
s on our server.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">- Is well-maintained and constan=
tly improving open source, concerned <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">with what m=
odern Internet communication looks like (silly things like <br></div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">Emoji and Gravatar, really important things like Unicode and RES=
T APIs <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">and downloadable archives of your posts, =
etc).<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">- Is one central place where all communicat=
ions happen.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">- If you like the mailing list, you =
can use it exclusively through email.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">- If you li=
ke the web forums, you can use it exclusively through a web <br></div><div =
dir=3D"ltr">browser.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">- If you want to use it thro=
ugh the web interface and occasionally shoot <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">off=
 a quick reply by email, you can do that too.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">- T=
he web interface looks modern and responsive, with all that AJAX-y <br></di=
v><div dir=3D"ltr">goodness. It runs well and looks good on mobile devices,=
 too.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">- It has all our email archives imported! A=
fter a lot of manual cleanup <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">and one-off perl sc=
ripts, all the existing mailing list content, all the <br></div><div dir=3D=
"ltr">way back to _1998_ has been turned into Discourse topics with threadi=
ng <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">intact. More than 20,000 topics, more than 10=
0,000 posts!<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">- It has all the old forum posts imp=
orted too, thanks to a lot of manual <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">cleanup and=
 one-off perl (and PHP!) scripts.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">- It has all th=
e users (more than 2000!) imported. We took efforts to <br></div><div dir=
=3D"ltr">try to merge people that posted from different email addresses ove=
r the <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">years into one account, using the latest e=
mail address we saw, and deal <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">with people that u=
sed both the forums and mailing list interchangeably <br></div><div dir=3D"=
ltr">over the years.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">- An actual search function =
that works.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">- Lots of bells and whistles and cont=
rol over everything...not just as <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">an administrat=
or, but as a user, so you get the experience just how you <br></div><div di=
r=3D"ltr">like it.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br=
></div><div dir=3D"ltr">So we're going to give it a little time and see if =
we can turn off the <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">existing list and forums. So=
 that we don't end up with two separate <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">communit=
ies, we're going to make this decision pretty quickly. As such, <br></div><=
div dir=3D"ltr">if you have problems (including a generic "I hate this"), p=
lease speak <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">up loudly as soon as possible.<br></=
div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">To get started: Go to <a hr=
ef=3D"https://discourse.libsdl.org/" target=3D"_blank">https://discourse.li=
bsdl.org/</a><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">If you s=
ign up for an account and it thinks your email is already in <br></div><div=
 dir=3D"ltr">use, we probably generated a user for you when the list archiv=
es were <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">imported. Just tell it your forgot your =
password and it'll email you a <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">reset link so you=
 can take control of the account. In this case, we <br></div><div dir=3D"lt=
r">assigned you a best-guess username, but you can change it yourself once =
<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">you log in.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div>=
<div dir=3D"ltr">If you exclusively used the web forums, we have an account=
 for you but <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">not your email: hit me up and I can=
 hand the account over to you, or you <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">can just m=
ake a new one, if you like.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"ltr">If you want to use Discourse as a mailing list and never see the webs=
ite <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">again, you can; there is an option to turn o=
n "Mailing List Mode" in <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">your user prefs. New to=
pics can be started by writing to <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><a ymailto=3D"=
mailto:[email protected]" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">s=
[email protected]</a>, or you reply to the address on whatever email =
<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">you want to reply to, and it ends up in the righ=
t place.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">If you have t=
rouble, we can fix things (including getting you a username <br></div><div =
dir=3D"ltr">from a legacy account, assigning ownership of old posts to a ne=
w <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">account, etc). Just let me know!<br></div><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">--ryan.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">_=
______________________________________________<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">SD=
L mailing list<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><a ymailto=3D"mailto:[email protected]=
sdl.org" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><br><=
/div><div dir=3D"ltr"><a href=3D"http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-l=
ibsdl.org" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsd=
l.org</a><br></div><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></div></body></html>
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_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

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