Re: Total Reciprocity Public License (TRPL v1.0)
Jay Patel <[email protected]> Sat, 6 Dec 2025 09:17:40 +0530
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.licenses.open-source.general |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CABnE4++RaNA1yiTGxRGsjgQ9WNUwLqPGym4n7KumKjOJmpEj7w@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============4591677109103667073== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000050e450645406dcc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --000000000000050e450645406dcc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Modified original Licence text into this draft from Feedbacks: https://github.com/trplfoundation/trpl-license/blob/main/Draft On Wed, Dec 3, 2025, 10:17=E2=80=AFPM Jay Patel <[email protected]> wr= ote: > Thank You Gil for feedback.You identified a critical logical loop (the > 'Postman problem') that would have made compliance impossible. > > Maybe adding this address your poins: > 1. Adding a 'System Library/Standard Tool' exception: To ensure generic > tools (OS, Browsers, API clients) are not infected, targeting only specif= ic > functional wrappers. > > 2. Tightening 'Intimate Communication': Removing 'not limited to' and > defining specific dependency types to reduce legal ambiguity. > > 3. Clarifying Deployment: Explicitly exempting personal/study use, > focusing 'Deployment' on organizational/commercial utility. > > My goal is 'Stronger than AGPL,' not 'Impossible to Run.' Your feedback > helps bridge that gap. > > Regards, > Jay > > On Wed, Dec 3, 2025, 9:52=E2=80=AFPM Gil Yehuda <[email protected]> wrot= e: > >> Jay, >> If you intend to ask for critique, there=E2=80=99s quite a bit =E2=80=94= from nitpicking >> details to fundamental flaws. I=E2=80=99ll list some of the apparent one= s below as >> I read the license text. >> If you intend to suggest this as a new open source license that would >> meet the OSD, I don=E2=80=99t think this will do. >> >> As I read the license: >> >> - Preamble: Licenses are documents that grant rights under >> conditions. This text suggests that the license can guarantee freedom= , >> indeed =E2=80=9Cradical=E2=80=9D freedom (I=E2=80=99m not sure of the= difference) in software >> architecture (not just code?). Licenses should articulate the rights = they >> grant and the conditions under which those rights are granted. Preamb= les >> are great to convey intent which helps when trying to interpret ambig= uity; >> but they also reveal cases where the intent is to express a wish for = how >> things ought to be in the world. That=E2=80=99s better expressed in a= manifesto, >> not a legal document. >> - =E2=80=9CIntimate Communication=E2=80=9D is one of my favorite term= s found in >> software licenses since it makes people think we=E2=80=99re also dabb= ling in >> marriage counseling. My constructive comment here is that when licens= es say >> =E2=80=9CThis includes, but is not limited to=E2=80=9D that automatic= ally creates a speed >> bump where a reader (and their lawyer) have to imagine if this includ= es >> something surprisingly not intended. It creates a very broad scope = =E2=80=94 and >> that=E2=80=99s going to warn me to stay away from using code under th= is license >> because I might intent to comply only to learn that the scope was eve= n >> broader than assumed. >> - =E2=80=9CContent Output=E2=80=9D is defined with two terms =E2=80= =9Chuman consumption or >> data storage=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 I understand the first to exclude non= -human uses and the >> second to exclude the use of data that is not stored. I note this bec= ause >> of the next phrase... >> - =E2=80=9CDeployment=E2=80=9D is defined with a curious inclusion of= the term >> =E2=80=9Cinternally or externally=E2=80=9D which I assume means in th= e context of a >> corporation (not of =E2=80=9Chuman consumption=E2=80=9D in the above = clause =E2=80=94 right?!) If >> so, then =E2=80=9Cinternally=E2=80=9D suggests that if I deploy my ap= plication onto my work >> computer for use by my work colleagues, then the copyright license >> considers this to be =E2=80=9Cdeployment=E2=80=99 subject to copyrigh= t protection. I do not >> believe that would hold up in the current interpretation of copyright= laws. >> - =E2=80=9CConsequently=E2=80=9D (line 40) is where this becomes quit= e challenging. >> If I create a system with code licensed under TRPL 1.0 that shares da= ta >> with any proprietary software to achieve a unified functional goal = =E2=80=94 this >> license declares that the proprietary software becomes part of a "Com= bined >> Work=E2=80=9D that I must release its source code under the terms of = this license. >> But what if that proprietary software is not mine to release? I might= not >> even have the source code? Let=E2=80=99s say I license the proprietar= y edition of >> Postman and use it to make an API call to software under TRPL 1.0 =E2= =80=94 >> internally (to my corporation, not in my body). I now have to acquire= and >> release Postman=E2=80=99s proprietary source code under the TRPL 1.0 = license? How >> would I go about doing that? Since there=E2=80=99s no definition of = =E2=80=9Crelease=E2=80=9D here, >> can I assume that if I deploy internally, then I can release internal= ly >> too? You see that would not help promote your intent. This section of= the >> license seems to convey how you wish software would work =E2=80=94 bu= t it does not >> clarify how I, a potential user of software licensed under this licen= se, >> needs to do to make the world work that way. >> >> >> I=E2=80=99m concerned there is little practical use of this license sinc= e any >> software licensed this way, no matter how appealing that software may be= , >> is automatically going to pose a threat to the rest of my software. Give= n >> that software is subject to copyright, and that as a user of software, I >> seek to honor other people=E2=80=99s copyrights, this license would make= it nearly >> impossible to do so. I=E2=80=99d always have to limit my use of this sof= tware to >> ensure I don=E2=80=99t inadvertently infringe other people=E2=80=99s rig= hts. >> >> Rather than a license, maybe we can collectively imagine what the past >> 40-50 years of technology would have been like had there been no copyrig= ht >> on source code. I imagine it would be different =E2=80=94 better in some= ways, >> worse in others. This license appears to invoke that imagination. But si= nce >> source code is subject to copyright laws, I think the licenses should do >> their best to work within that context, granting rights that the grantor >> wishes to grant, and imposing conditions that the users of the software >> wish to, and can, comply with. This text falls short on the second part,= at >> least for me. >> >> Gil >> >> >> >> On Dec 3, 2025, at 12:59=E2=80=AFAM, Jay Patel <[email protected]> = wrote: >> >> I am reaching out to community to collect feedback on the proposed >> license. >> >> Here is text of License: >> >> https://github.com/trplfoundation/trpl-license/blob/main/LICENSE >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jay >> >> _______________________________________________ >> The opinions expressed in this email are those of the sender and not >> necessarily those of the Open Source Initiative. Official statements by = the >> Open Source Initiative will be sent from an opensource.org email address= . >> >> License-discuss mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-discuss_lists.opens= ource.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> The opinions expressed in this email are those of the sender and not >> necessarily those of the Open Source Initiative. Official statements by = the >> Open Source Initiative will be sent from an opensource.org email address= . >> >> License-discuss mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-discuss_lists.opens= ource.org >> > --000000000000050e450645406dcc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div><div>Modified original Licence text into t= his draft from Feedbacks:</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto= "><a href=3D"https://github.com/trplfoundation/trpl-license/blob/main/Draft= ">https://github.com/trplfoundation/trpl-license/blob/main/Draft</a></div><= /div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" = class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Dec 3, 2025, 10:17=E2=80=AFPM Jay Patel <<a= href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> wrot= e:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0= .8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"a= uto"><div><div>Thank You Gil for feedback.You identified a critical logical= loop (the 'Postman problem') that would have made compliance impos= sible.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Maybe adding this= address your poins:</div><div dir=3D"auto">1. Adding a 'System Library= /Standard Tool' exception: To ensure generic tools (OS, Browsers, API c= lients) are not infected, targeting only specific functional wrappers.</div= ><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">2. Tightening 'Intimate = Communication': Removing 'not limited to' and defining specific= dependency types to reduce legal ambiguity.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></d= iv><div dir=3D"auto">3. Clarifying Deployment: Explicitly exempting persona= l/study use, focusing 'Deployment' on organizational/commercial uti= lity.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">My goal is 'St= ronger than AGPL,' not 'Impossible to Run.' Your feedback helps= bridge that gap.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>Regards,</div><div dir= =3D"auto">Jay<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"lt= r" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Dec 3, 2025, 9:52=E2=80=AFPM Gil Yehuda <= ;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer"= >[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot= e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)= ;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D""><div style=3D"">Jay,=C2=A0<div>If you in= tend to ask for critique, there=E2=80=99s quite a bit =E2=80=94 from nitpic= king details to fundamental flaws. I=E2=80=99ll list some of the apparent o= nes below as I read the license text.</div><div>If you intend to suggest th= is as a new open source license that would meet the OSD, I don=E2=80=99t th= ink this will do.</div><div><br></div><div>As I read the license:</div><div= ><ul><li>Preamble: Licenses are documents that grant rights under condition= s. This text suggests that the license can guarantee freedom, indeed =E2=80= =9Cradical=E2=80=9D freedom (I=E2=80=99m not sure of the difference) in sof= tware architecture (not just code?). Licenses should articulate the rights = they grant and the conditions under which those rights are granted. Preambl= es are great to convey intent which helps when trying to interpret ambiguit= y; but they also reveal cases where the intent is to express a wish for how= things ought to be in the world. That=E2=80=99s better expressed in a mani= festo, not a legal document.</li><li>=E2=80=9CIntimate Communication=E2=80= =9D is one of my favorite terms found in software licenses since it makes p= eople think we=E2=80=99re also dabbling in marriage counseling. My construc= tive comment here is that when licenses say =E2=80=9CThis includes, but is = not limited to=E2=80=9D that automatically creates a speed bump where a rea= der (and their lawyer) have to imagine if this includes something surprisin= gly not intended. It creates a very broad scope =E2=80=94 and that=E2=80=99= s going to warn me to stay away from using code under this license because = I might intent to comply only to learn that the scope was even broader than= assumed.</li><li>=E2=80=9CContent Output=E2=80=9D is defined with two term= s =E2=80=9Chuman consumption or data storage=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 I understan= d the first to exclude non-human uses and the second to exclude the use of = data that is not stored. I note this because of the next phrase...</li><li>= =E2=80=9CDeployment=E2=80=9D is defined with a curious inclusion of the ter= m =E2=80=9Cinternally or externally=E2=80=9D which I assume means in the co= ntext of a corporation (not of =E2=80=9Chuman consumption=E2=80=9D in the a= bove clause =E2=80=94 right?!) If so, then =E2=80=9Cinternally=E2=80=9D sug= gests that if I deploy my application onto my work computer for use by my w= ork colleagues, then the copyright license considers this to be =E2=80=9Cde= ployment=E2=80=99 subject to copyright protection. I do not believe that wo= uld hold up in the current interpretation of copyright laws.=C2=A0</li><li>= =E2=80=9CConsequently=E2=80=9D (line 40) is where this becomes quite challe= nging. If I create a system with code licensed under TRPL 1.0 that shares d= ata with any proprietary software=C2=A0to achieve a unified functional goal= =E2=80=94 this license declares that the proprietary software becomes part= of=C2=A0a "Combined Work=E2=80=9D that I must release its source code= under the terms of this license. But what if that proprietary software is = not mine to release? I might not even have the source code? Let=E2=80=99s s= ay I license the proprietary edition of Postman and use it to make an API c= all to software under TRPL 1.0 =E2=80=94 internally (to my corporation, not= in my body). I now have to acquire and release Postman=E2=80=99s proprieta= ry source code under the TRPL 1.0 license? How would I go about doing that?= Since there=E2=80=99s no definition of =E2=80=9Crelease=E2=80=9D here, can= I assume that if I deploy internally, then I can release internally too? Y= ou see that would not help promote your intent. This section of the license= seems to convey how you wish software would work =E2=80=94 but it does not= clarify how I, a potential user of software licensed under this license, n= eeds to do to make the world work that way.=C2=A0</li></ul><div><br></div><= div>I=E2=80=99m concerned there is little practical use of this license sin= ce any software licensed this way, no matter how appealing that software ma= y be, is automatically going to pose a threat to the rest of my software. G= iven that software is subject to copyright, and that as a user of software,= I seek to honor other people=E2=80=99s copyrights, this license would make= it nearly impossible to do so. I=E2=80=99d always have to limit my use of = this software to ensure I don=E2=80=99t inadvertently infringe other people= =E2=80=99s rights.</div></div><div><br></div><div>Rather than a license, ma= ybe we can collectively imagine what the past 40-50 years of technology wou= ld have been like had there been no copyright on source code. I imagine it = would be different =E2=80=94 better in some ways, worse in others. This lic= ense appears to invoke that imagination. But since source code is subject t= o copyright laws, I think the licenses should do their best to work within = that context, granting rights that the grantor wishes to grant, and imposin= g conditions that the users of the software wish to, and can, comply with. = This text falls short on the second part, at least for me.=C2=A0</div><div>= <br></div><div>Gil</div><div><br></div><div><br id=3D"m_4525705651384579800= m_7648066646094320510lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage"><div><br><blockquote ty= pe=3D"cite"><div>On Dec 3, 2025, at 12:59=E2=80=AFAM, Jay Patel <<a href= =3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"= _blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"aut= o">I am reaching out to community to collect feedback on the proposed licen= se.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Here is text of License:</= div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><a href=3D"https://github= .com/trplfoundation/trpl-license/blob/main/LICENSE" rel=3D"noreferrer noref= errer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/trplfoundation/trpl-license/blo= b/main/LICENSE</a></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Thank= s,</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Jay</div><div dir=3D"= auto"><br></div></div> _______________________________________________<br>The opinions expressed i= n this email are those of the sender and not necessarily those of the Open = Source Initiative. Official statements by the Open Source Initiative will b= e sent from an <a href=3D"http://opensource.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferr= er" target=3D"_blank">opensource.org</a> email address.<br><br>License-disc= uss mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"= rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]= source.org</a><br><a href=3D"http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/l= icense-discuss_lists.opensource.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target= =3D"_blank">http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-discuss_li= sts.opensource.org</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>__= _____________________________________________<br> The opinions expressed in this email are those of the sender and not necess= arily those of the Open Source Initiative. Official statements by the Open = Source Initiative will be sent from an <a href=3D"http://opensource.org" re= l=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">opensource.org</a>= email address.<br> <br> License-discuss mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer n= oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br> <a href=3D"http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-discuss_lis= ts.opensource.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blan= k">http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-discuss_lists.opens= ource.org</a><br> </blockquote></div></div></div> </blockquote></div> --000000000000050e450645406dcc-- --===============4591677109103667073== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KVGhlIG9waW5p b25zIGV4cHJlc3NlZCBpbiB0aGlzIGVtYWlsIGFyZSB0aG9zZSBvZiB0aGUgc2VuZGVyIGFuZCBu b3QgbmVjZXNzYXJpbHkgdGhvc2Ugb2YgdGhlIE9wZW4gU291cmNlIEluaXRpYXRpdmUuIE9mZmlj aWFsIHN0YXRlbWVudHMgYnkgdGhlIE9wZW4gU291cmNlIEluaXRpYXRpdmUgd2lsbCBiZSBzZW50 IGZyb20gYW4gb3BlbnNvdXJjZS5vcmcgZW1haWwgYWRkcmVzcy4KCkxpY2Vuc2UtZGlzY3VzcyBt YWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTGljZW5zZS1kaXNjdXNzQGxpc3RzLm9wZW5zb3VyY2Uub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly9s aXN0cy5vcGVuc291cmNlLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2xpY2Vuc2UtZGlzY3Vzc19saXN0 cy5vcGVuc291cmNlLm9yZwo= --===============4591677109103667073==--