Re: Script to find a best fit v11n
Greg Hellings <[email protected]> Mon, 30 Jun 2025 18:35:03 -0500
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.literature.sword.devel |
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| Message-ID | <CAHxvOV+D5Bk1SALkOO0xubhO6iOvdWqZorn5uXer7RZ8btqO_Q@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============8393911896295109938== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c7ec7f0638d27aa7" --000000000000c7ec7f0638d27aa7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think this sentiment from Peter is the crux of why people in this community don't want to use a more permissive license. Most of us don't want our work on scripture, scripture access, and the surrounding utilities to be turned into a commercial application. That's exactly what Copyleft licenses try to ensure. This isn't the case of a compression library, or an encryption algorithm which, while good, is just a too. Most of us view this as far more than that, and we do not want to see it turned into a way to restrict access to scripture. So I don't think the more permissive option is going to go very far. But a less permissive option to use GPLv2 or GPLv3? That would be great! (At least, in a self-serving way, it would be great for me) --Greg On Mon, Jun 30, 2025 at 11:46=E2=80=AFAM Peter von Kaehne <[email protected]> = wrote: > Fair. Still my view. Did not know they are niw separate. It started thiug= h > as one and the basic decisions were made when one was part of the other. > > Having access to all our modules and using the labour of everyone and the= n > creating a separate ecosystem with special modules we can not use is in m= y > eyes very bad behaviour. > > It might be acceptable from the license point of view, it is not > acceptable to me from any other point of view. > > Peter > > Sent from Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef> > > ------------------------------ > *From:* sword-devel <[email protected]> on behalf of > David Haslam <dfhdfh-g/[email protected]> > *Sent:* Monday, June 30, 2025 2:57 pm > *To:* sword-devel mailing list <[email protected]> > *Cc:* David Instone-Brewer <[email protected]>; Jamie Jamieson > <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [sword-devel] Script to find a best fit v11n > > Hi Peter, > > STEP Bible is formally & organisationally separate from Tyndale House, > Cambridge. > > It has been so for several years. > > David > > > > On Mon, Jun 30, 2025 at 14:52, Peter von Kaehne <[email protected] > <On+Mon,+Jun+30,+2025+at+14:52,+Peter+von+Kaehne+%3C%3Ca+href=3D>> wrote: > > Step Bible is to my mind the reason not ever to go LGPL. The sole reason > STEP has the ESV and a dozen other modules we don=E2=80=99t have for us i= s a weird > double encryption inside STEP we do not have access to. And Tyndale House > behaves badly in terms of negotiating on everyone=E2=80=99s behalf. my vi= ew. > > Peter > > Sent from Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef> > > ------------------------------ > *From:* sword-devel <[email protected]> on behalf of > David Haslam <dfhdfh-g/[email protected]> > *Sent:* Monday, June 30, 2025 2:40 pm > *To:* sword-devel mailing list <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [sword-devel] Script to find a best fit v11n > > Does anyone know whether STEP Bible uses JSword as is, or a modified form > of JSword ? > > Asking in view of Arnaud=E2=80=99s observation about LGPL. > > Kind regards, > > David > > Sent from Proton Mail <https://proton.me/mail/home> for iOS > > > On Mon, Jun 30, 2025 at 14:32, Arnaud Vi=C3=A9 < [email protected] > <On+Mon,+Jun+30,+2025+at+14:32,+Arnaud+Vi=C3=A9+%3C%3Ca+href=3D>> wrote: > > It might be a silly question, but can't we just consider changing the > libsword license to something more permissive to allow such use cases, > without overthinking about GPL compatibility issues ? > It is quite uncommon for open source libraries to use GPL nowadays, as > it's very restrictive by nature. GPL remains mostly for "complete" > applications - libraries tend to rather use LGPL, Apache 2.0 or MIT licen= se > (depending on the level of protection they seek), to favour wide usabilit= y. > > It is to be noted that JSword is published under LGPL, which allows other > apps to use it without constraints as long as it's not being modified. > It would be enough for the current use case, and it would make sense for > libsword and jsword to be aligned. > Personally speaking, I'd favour something more permissive like the Apache > 2.0 license, which basically allows any usage or modification of any kind= , > but requires people to preserve the initial copyright notice and notify o= f > significant changes. > > Of course, publishing under a new license can only be done by the current > rights holder, which according to the libsword LICENSE is the "CrossWire > Bible Society", as an organisation. > Does Troy have the full power of decision on the topic ? > Troy, what do you think of publishing libsword under a more permissive > license ? > > Regards, > > Arnaud > > > Le lun. 30 juin 2025 =C3=A0 14:43, Mat=C4=9Bj Cepl < [email protected]> a =C3= =A9crit : > > On Mon Jun 30, 2025 at 4:55 AM CEST, Aaron Rainbolt wrote: > > From what I understand as someone who isn't a lawyer but has done > > licensing audits for applications in Ubuntu and Debian, you'll only > > run into issues if you publish *built binaries* of your code. > > That technically may be true, but it is a stupid idea. You don=E2=80=99t > do open source software, which nobody can package and distribute. > > And apparently FSF doesn=E2=80=99t agree with my analysis: > https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#v2v3Compatibility > > So, my only advice is to relicense your new program under GPLv2 > and send FSF to =E2=80=A6 Apparently, you will be in the distinguished > company of Linus Torvalds and many others. > > Best, > > Mat=C4=9Bj > > -- > http://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/, @[email protected] > GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5 BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8 > > For those of you who think we are descendents from those cavemen > who stood and fought with dinosaurs, you must be nuts, we are > descendents from the ones who ran like hell to live. > > _______________________________________________ > sword-devel mailing list: [email protected] > http://crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page > > _______________________________________________ > sword-devel mailing list: [email protected] > http://crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page > > _______________________________________________ > sword-devel mailing list: [email protected] > http://crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page > --000000000000c7ec7f0638d27aa7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I think this sentiment from Peter is the crux of why = people in this community don't want to use a more permissive license. M= ost of us don't want our work on scripture, scripture access, and the s= urrounding utilities to be turned into a commercial application. That's= exactly what Copyleft licenses try to ensure. This isn't the case of a= compression library, or an encryption algorithm which, while good, is just= a too. Most of us view this as far more than that, and we do not want to s= ee it turned into a way to restrict access to scripture. So I don't thi= nk the more permissive option is going to go very far.</div><div><br></div>= <div>But a less permissive option to use GPLv2 or GPLv3? That would be grea= t! (At least, in a self-serving way, it would be great for me)</div><div><b= r></div><div>--Greg</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_containe= r"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jun 30, 2025 at 11:46=E2= =80=AFAM Peter von Kaehne <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">refdoc@gmx.= net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg= in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e= x"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Fair. Still my view. Did not know they are niw sep= arate. It started thiugh as one and the basic decisions were made when one = was part of the other.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"lt= r" style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_MSFontService,-apple-system,Roboto,Aria= l,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">Having access to all our modules and= using the labour of everyone and then creating a separate ecosystem with s= pecial modules we can not use is in my eyes very bad behaviour.=C2=A0</div>= <div id=3D"m_-1856944700258054612ms-outlook-mobile-body-separator-line" dir= =3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_MSFontService,-apple-system= ,Roboto,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"></span></div><div id=3D"= m_-1856944700258054612ms-outlook-mobile-signature" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><d= iv id=3D"m_-1856944700258054612ms-outlook-mobile-signature">It might be acc= eptable from the license point of view, it is not acceptable to me from any= other point of view.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_-1856944700258054612ms-outloo= k-mobile-signature" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-1856944700258054612= ms-outlook-mobile-signature">Peter</div><div id=3D"m_-1856944700258054612ms= -outlook-mobile-signature" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-185694470025= 8054612ms-outlook-mobile-signature">Sent from <a href=3D"https://aka.ms/o0u= kef" target=3D"_blank">Outlook for iOS</a></div><div>=C2=A0</div><div id=3D= "m_-1856944700258054612mail-editor-reference-message-container"><hr style= =3D"display:inline-block;width:98%"><div id=3D"m_-1856944700258054612divRpl= yFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From= :</b>=C2=A0sword-devel <<a href=3D"mailto:sword-devel-bounces@crosswire.= org" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> on behalf = of David Haslam <<a href=3D"mailto:dfhdfh-g/[email protected]" target=3D"_bla= nk">dfhdfh-g/[email protected]</a>><br><b>Sent:</b>=C2=A0Monday, June 30, 202= 5 2:57 pm<br><b>To:</b>=C2=A0sword-devel mailing list <<a href=3D"mailto= :[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>= ><br><b>Cc:</b>=C2=A0David Instone-Brewer <<a href=3D"mailto:davidins= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>>= ;; Jamie Jamieson <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blan= k">[email protected]</a>><br><b>Subject:</b>=C2=A0Re: [sword-devel] Scr= ipt to find a best fit v11n</span><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-se= rif">=C2=A0</div></div><div dir=3D"auto">Hi Peter,</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><b= r></div><div dir=3D"auto">STEP Bible is formally & organisationally sep= arate from Tyndale House, Cambridge.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div d= ir=3D"auto">It has been so for several years.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></d= iv><div dir=3D"auto">David</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"= ><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div>On Mon, Jun 30, 2025 at 14:52, Peter = von Kaehne <<a href=3D"mailto:On+Mon,+Jun+30,+2025+at+14:52,+Peter+von+K= aehne+%3C%3Ca+href=3D" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<bloc= kquote><div dir=3D"ltr"> Step Bible is to my mind the reason not ever to go LGPL. The sole reason S= TEP has the ESV and a dozen other modules we don=E2=80=99t have for us is a= weird double encryption inside STEP we do not have access to. And Tyndale = House behaves badly in terms of negotiating on everyone=E2=80=99s behalf. m= y view.=C2=A0 </div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br> </div><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Aptos,Aptos_MSFontService,-appl= e-system,Roboto,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"> Peter </div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"m_-1856944700258054612ms-outlook-mobile-body-s= eparator-line"><br> </div><div id=3D"m_-1856944700258054612ms-outlook-mobile-signature"> Sent from=20 <a href=3D"https://aka.ms/o0ukef" target=3D"_blank">Outlook for iOS</a> </div><div> =C2=A0 </div><div id=3D"m_-1856944700258054612mail-editor-reference-message-contai= ner"><hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%"><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"m_= -1856944700258054612divRplyFwdMsg"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-= serif"><b>From:</b>=C2=A0sword-devel <<a href=3D"mailto:sword-devel-boun= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>&= gt; on behalf of David Haslam <<a href=3D"mailto:dfhdfh-g/[email protected]" = target=3D"_blank">dfhdfh-g/[email protected]</a>><br><b>Sent:</b>=C2=A0Monday= , June 30, 2025 2:40 pm<br><b>To:</b>=C2=A0sword-devel mailing list <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">sword-devel@cro= sswire.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b>=C2=A0Re: [sword-devel] Script to find= a best fit v11n</span> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> =C2=A0 </div></div><div dir=3D"auto"> Does anyone know whether STEP Bible uses JSword as is, or a modified form= of JSword ? </div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br> </div><div dir=3D"auto"> Asking in view of Arnaud=E2=80=99s observation about LGPL.=C2=A0 </div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br> </div><div dir=3D"auto"> Kind regards, </div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br> </div><div dir=3D"auto"> David </div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br> </div><div id=3D"m_-1856944700258054612protonmail_mobile_signature_block"><= div> Sent from=20 <a href=3D"https://proton.me/mail/home" target=3D"_blank">Proton Mail</a>= =C2=A0for iOS </div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br> </div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br> </div>On Mon, Jun 30, 2025 at 14:32, Arnaud Vi=C3=A9 < <a href=3D"mailto:On+Mon,+Jun+30,+2025+at+14:32,+Arnaud+Vi=C3=A9+%3C%3Ca+h= ref=3D" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote: <blockquote><div dir=3D"ltr"> It might be a silly question, but can't we just consider changing t= he libsword license to something more permissive to allow such use cases, w= ithout overthinking about GPL compatibility issues ?=20 <br>=20 </div><div dir=3D"ltr"> It is quite uncommon for open source libraries to use GPL nowadays, as = it's very restrictive by nature. GPL remains mostly for "complete&= quot; applications - libraries tend to rather use LGPL, Apache 2.0 or MIT l= icense (depending on the level of protection they seek), to favour wide usa= bility.=20 </div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>=20 </div><div dir=3D"ltr"> It is to be noted that JSword is published under LGPL, which allows othe= r apps to use it without constraints as long as it's not being modified= .=20 <br>It would be enough for the current use case, and it would make sense fo= r libsword and jsword to be aligned.=20 </div><div dir=3D"ltr"> Personally speaking, I'd favour something more permissive like the = Apache 2.0 license, which basically allows any usage or modification of any= kind, but requires people to preserve the initial copyright notice and not= ify of significant changes.=20 </div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>=20 </div><div dir=3D"ltr"> Of course, publishing under a new license can only be done by the curre= nt rights holder, which according to the libsword LICENSE is the "Cros= sWire Bible Society", as an organisation.=20 </div><div dir=3D"ltr"> Does Troy have the full power of decision on the topic ?=20 </div><div dir=3D"ltr"> Troy, what do you think of publishing libsword under a more permissive = license ?=20 </div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>=20 </div><div dir=3D"ltr"> Regards,=20 </div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>=20 </div><div dir=3D"ltr"> Arnaud=20 </div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>=20 </div><div><br>=20 </div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"> Le=C2=A0lun. 30 juin 2025 =C3=A0=C2=A014:43, Mat=C4=9Bj Cepl <=20 <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> a= =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:=20 <br>=20 </div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border= -left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"> On Mon Jun 30, 2025 at 4:55 AM CEST, Aaron Rainbolt wrote:=20 <br>> From what I understand as someone who isn't a lawyer but has d= one=20 <br>> licensing audits for applications in Ubuntu and Debian, you'll= only=20 <br>> run into issues if you publish *built binaries* of your code.=20 <br>=20 <br>That technically may be true, but it is a stupid idea. You don=E2=80=99= t=20 <br>do open source software, which nobody can package and distribute.=20 <br>=20 <br>And apparently FSF doesn=E2=80=99t agree with my analysis:=20 <br>=20 <a href=3D"https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#v2v3Compatibility"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.= html#v2v3Compatibility</a>=20 <br>=20 <br>So, my only advice is to relicense your new program under GPLv2=20 <br>and send FSF to =E2=80=A6 Apparently, you will be in the distinguished= =20 <br>company of Linus Torvalds and many others.=20 <br>=20 <br>Best,=20 <br>=20 <br>Mat=C4=9Bj=20 <br>=20 <br>--=20 <br>=20 <a href=3D"http://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"= _blank">http://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/</a>, @[email protected]=20 <br>GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5=C2=A0 BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8=20 <br>=20 <br>For those of you who think we are descendents from those cavemen=20 <br>who stood and fought with dinosaurs, you must be nuts, we are=20 <br>descendents from the ones who ran like hell to live.=20 <br>=20 <br>_______________________________________________=20 <br>sword-devel mailing list:=20 <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">sword-devel= @crosswire.org</a>=20 <br>=20 <a href=3D"http://crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel" rel=3D"no= referrer" target=3D"_blank">http://crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-dev= el</a>=20 <br>Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page=20 <br>=20 </div></blockquote></blockquote></div><p>__________________________________= _____________<br>sword-devel mailing list: <a href=3D"mailto:sword-devel@cr= osswire.org" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br><a href=3D"= http://crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel" target=3D"_blank">http:/= /crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel</a><br>Instructions to unsubscr= ibe/change your settings at above page</p></blockquote></div></div>________= _______________________________________<br> sword-devel mailing list: <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" targ= et=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br> <a href=3D"http://crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel" rel=3D"norefe= rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel</= a><br> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page<br> </blockquote></div></div> --000000000000c7ec7f0638d27aa7-- --===============8393911896295109938== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ sword-devel mailing list: [email protected] http://crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page --===============8393911896295109938==--