Re: Help with crash?
Jeff Weinberger <[email protected]> Fri, 5 Mar 2021 05:13:20 -0800
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.macosx.general |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CAKQM0Rke3smwSvGPfU=iWX+f+V3-6v3jqHdpEGqjdmEJ6FH8PA@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============0130965469988240958== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000270a4205bcc9d9fd" --000000000000270a4205bcc9d9fd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mar 4, 2021, at 11:28 PM, Macs R We <[email protected]> wrote: =EF=BB=BF There's a free tool called Grand Perspective. If you've never seen the interface before, you'll think it is the most bizarre thing you've ever seen, but after you've used it just once you will wonder why no one ever did it before. I've had people find mail logs that had wildly grown out of control due to gmail bugs, dead copies of macOS that they forgot they had, and things like that. The huge files are glaringly obvious off the bat. I believe there is a mode where you can ask it to request the admin password from you and it will scan additional portions of the file system to the same effect. It's possible on that last detail that I'm thinking of DaisyDisk, another tool that does much the same task with a different interface, that is available for trial use. Thank you all for these ideas. I=E2=80=99ll go find these and see what show= s up! On Mar 4, 2021, at 5:47 PM, Jeff Weinberger <[email protected]> wrote= : =EF=BB=BF On Mar 4, 2021, at 7:34 PM, Macs R We <[email protected]> wrote: =EF=BB=BFIt sounds like you have two problems at once: your drive is over-f= ull, and it's also going bad. It's quite possible that your panics are due to the OS not being able to access or write critical runtime information on some portion of the drive that it owns. I can give you some ways to find large files you weren't aware you had and would be happy to delete, but it's not going to make your drive work better. When your drive gets this sick, contiuing to use it just accelerates the damage. Since it looks like you're going to need to buy a new drive anyway, I'd just buy a bigger one, hack the transfer, and be done with it. Thank you for your help. You did guide me to the right places to find this. It=E2=80=99s definitely time for a new drive, sadly. If you don=E2=80=99t mind offering ways to find some large files, I=E2=80= =99d appreciate it. I will need to clear space even after the new drive. Thank you! On Mar 4, 2021, at 3:29 PM, Jeff Weinberger <[email protected]> wrote= : On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 11:56 AM Jeff Weinberger <[email protected]> wrote: > On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 3:47 PM Macs R We <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I can't give you great instructions because I don't have any panic logs >> of my own so that I could tell you for sure where to find them. >> >> Open Console, click one by one on all the folders and subfolders in the >> left-hand column (the system-y ones, at any rate, you can skip stuff lik= e >> Microsoft) looking in the center column for any that start with "panic" = and >> have the right date and time on them. I expect you'll find them somewher= e >> under either /Library/Logs or /var/log. Keep in mind that folders that h= ave >> subfolders also have logs directly inside them, so don't miss clicking >> directly on them. >> >> If you find an appropriate panic log, right-click on it, choose Reveal i= n >> Finder, then copy it to a cloud-accessible location. >> > > Thanks. I've done a good bit of searching and there seems to be no "panic= " > log - only crash reports for individual daemons/tasks. The only informati= on > I can find that shows what was happening in the system at the time of the > crash is what I posted in my initial email from system.log. > > For most of the crashes, the only entries in the crash reports seem to be > from 'cloudd' - and my iCloud syncing is not working well at all, so I > suspect this is the cause. Some other things show up now and then (disk > issues with an external drive that might be failing and once or twice, > 'ScreenTimeAgent') but not consistenly. Thinking a fresh install of the O= S > might help. Or it's just all gone flaky. > >> >> >> On Mar 3, 2021, at 12:19 PM, Jeff Weinberger <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 1:49 PM Macs R We <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Most direct thing to do is log into the account that doesn't crash, go >>> into Console, find the panic log from that crash, and make it available >>> somewhere where we can look at it. >>> >> >> Happy to, but pardon my ignorance here. I posted messages from the syste= m >> log, but don't know where to find the panic log. If you can help point m= e >> there, I'll post it .If it helps I'm on an iMac (late 2015) running >> MacOS11.1. Thank you! >> >> >>> >>> I do like the technique of booting from a drive with a virgin OS on it. >>> I keep one of those, most people don't. >>> >> >> I don't, sadly. I"m hesitant to erase my internal drive because the data >> loss (even with time machine) would be tough, but if nothing else works.= ... >> >> >>> >>> On Mar 3, 2021, at 11:40 AM, Jeff Weinberger <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 1:17 PM Matt Penna <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Whenever I encounter such a problem, my first steps are to run Apple >>>> Hardware Test (AHT), and if that shows no problems (it=E2=80=99s far f= rom >>>> foolproof), try a completely clean install of the OS to a blank drive.= See >>>> if you can get any clues from either of these steps. >>>> >>>> If you need AHT for your Mac, you can find it for many different Mac >>>> models here on GitHub: >>>> >>>> https://github.com/upekkha/AppleHardwareTest >>>> >>>> Let us know how it goes. >>>> >>>> You mentioned that occasionally your Mac refuses to start up. Can you >>>> describe the crashes you=E2=80=99re seeing? Are you getting the gray s= creen with a >>>> message that you need to restart your computer, or is it just a reboot= with >>>> no warning? >>>> >>> >>> It actually crashes when I try to log in to my user account. It starts >>> up slowly, but does start, then I log in and I get the grey screen that >>> says I need to reboot. >>> >>> I am able to log into an alternate user account, so I don't think it's >>> hardware...but I'll give that a try. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Matt >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 3, 2021, at 12:56 PM, Jeff Weinberger <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Thank you for your help with SIMBL I removed all traces I could find o= f >>>> it and it no longer appears in logs, crash reports, 'find' commands, e= tc. >>>> >>>> May I impose on your collective expertise to help diagnose the ongoing >>>> crashes? >>>> >>>> But the system crashes have not stopped. I have identified that it is >>>> the user account (I am the only user of the system, so having my user >>>> account is kind of important). I only have two use accounts: 1) mine a= nd 2) >>>> a test account just in case there's a problem with mine - which there = is. >>>> >>>> Every time I restart and then login to my account my Mac crashes. When >>>> I log in to the test account, it is very slow, but successfully logs i= n and >>>> I can do some testing. >>>> >>>> I noticed some issues with one of my two external drives, so I have >>>> disconnected it. The crashes continue. >>>> >>>> I see from the log files that "cloudd" (the iCloud daemon) crashes ver= y >>>> frequently. I don't know if this is relevant. >>>> >>>> Any help is appreciated! >>>> >>>> Here is the system.log file leading up to the last crash: >>>> >>>> >> I have made progress, but am not sure how to resolve what seems to be the issue. I see lots of disk access errors leading up to the crashes in system.log. Some are related to the startup disk being full (it's very close to full). The crash logs show lots of crashes for 'ccloud' - the iCloud sync agent. I have my iCloud account set to manage my disk space (moving older files to the cloud when there is little space left), so the disk should never get full. Because I do see new files from my iMac (the one that crashes) on my iPhone/iPad in iCloud, it is syncing files, but I suspect it's crashing trying to move files to the cloud to make space on my local device. So I need to make space without losing files. Is there any way to force iCloud to move specified files to the cloud? I can think of other, more complex, ways to fix this, and would appreciate suggestions. Thank you for all your help! _______________________________________________ MacOSX-talk mailing list [email protected] https://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-talk --000000000000270a4205bcc9d9fd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset= =3Dutf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div></div><= div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Mar 4, 2021, at 11:28 PM, = Macs R We <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a= >> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir= =3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; c= harset=3Dutf-8"><div dir=3D"ltr">There's a free tool called Grand Persp= ective. If you've never seen the interface before, you'll think it = is the most bizarre thing you've ever seen, but after you've used i= t just once you will wonder why no one ever did it before. I've had peo= ple find mail logs that had wildly grown out of control due to gmail bugs, = dead copies of macOS that they forgot they had, and things like that. The h= uge files are glaringly obvious off the bat. I believe there is a mode wher= e you can ask it to request the admin password from you and it will scan ad= ditional portions of the file system to the same effect. It's possible = on that last detail that I'm thinking of DaisyDisk, another tool that d= oes much the same task with a different interface, that is available for tr= ial use.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div>Thank you al= l for these ideas. I=E2=80=99ll go find these and see what shows up!<br><bl= ockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote ty= pe=3D"cite">On Mar 4, 2021, at 5:47 PM, Jeff Weinberger <<a href=3D"mail= to:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br><br><= /blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<meta= http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><div di= r=3D"ltr"><div><br></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cit= e">On Mar 4, 2021, at 7:34 PM, Macs R We <<a href=3D"mailto:macsrwe@macs= rwe.com">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><bloc= kquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-= Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">It sounds like you have two pr= oblems at once: your drive is over-full, and it's also going bad. It= 9;s quite possible that your panics are due to the OS not being able to acc= ess or write critical runtime information on some portion of the drive that= it owns.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I can give yo= u some ways to find large files you weren't aware you had and would be = happy to delete, but it's not going to make your drive work better. Whe= n your drive gets this sick, contiuing to use it just accelerates the damag= e. Since it looks like you're going to need to buy a new drive anyway, = I'd just buy a bigger one, hack the transfer, and be done with it.<br c= lass=3D""><div><br class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div= >Thank you for your help. You did guide me to the right places to find this= .<div><br></div><div>It=E2=80=99s definitely time for a new drive, sadly.= =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>If you don=E2=80=99t mind offering ways to = find some large files, I=E2=80=99d appreciate it. I will need to clear spac= e even after the new drive.</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you!</div><div><= br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D""><d= iv><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Mar 4, 2021, at = 3:29 PM, Jeff Weinberger <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" cla= ss=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-inte= rchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helv= etica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight= :normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfo= rm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none" class=3D"= "><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 11:56 AM Jeff Weinberg= er <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" class=3D"">jeff@jeffweinb= erger.com</a>> wrote:<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><bl= ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef= t-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padd= ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">On We= d, Mar 3, 2021 at 3:47 PM Macs R We <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= om" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br clas= s=3D""></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s= tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:so= lid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word= -wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class=3D"">I can't give = you great instructions because I don't have any panic logs of my own so= that I could tell you for sure where to find them.<div class=3D""><br clas= s=3D""><div class=3D"">Open Console, click one by one on all the folders an= d subfolders in the left-hand column (the system-y ones, at any rate, you c= an skip stuff like Microsoft) looking in the center column for any that sta= rt with "panic" and have the right date and time on them. I expec= t you'll find them somewhere under either /Library/Logs or /var/log. Ke= ep in mind that folders that have subfolders also have logs directly inside= them, so don't miss clicking directly on them.</div><div class=3D""><b= r class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If you find an appropriate panic log, ri= ght-click on it, choose Reveal in Finder, then copy it to a cloud-accessibl= e location.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></= div><div class=3D"">Thanks. I've done a good bit of searching and there= seems to be no "panic" log - only crash reports for individual d= aemons/tasks. The only information I can find that shows what was happening= in the system at the time of the crash is what I posted in my initial emai= l from system.log.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div cla= ss=3D"">For most of the crashes, the only entries in the crash reports seem= to be from 'cloudd' =C2=A0- and my iCloud syncing is not working w= ell at all, so I suspect this is the cause. Some other things show up now a= nd then (disk issues with an external drive that might be failing and once = or twice, 'ScreenTimeAgent') but not consistenly. Thinking a fresh = install of the OS might help. Or it's just all gone flaky.=C2=A0</div><= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);pa= dding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-s= pace" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class= =3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">O= n Mar 3, 2021, at 12:19 PM, Jeff Weinberger <<a href=3D"mailto:jeff@jeff= weinberger.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">[email protected]</a>>= ; wrote:</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><d= iv dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D= "gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at = 1:49 PM Macs R We <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_bla= nk" class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br class=3D""></div><bloc= kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-= width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);paddin= g-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space= " class=3D"">Most direct thing to do is log into the account that doesn'= ;t crash, go into Console, find the panic log from that crash, and make it = available somewhere where we can look at it.</div></blockquote><div class= =3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Happy to, but pardon my ignoranc= e here. I posted messages from the=C2=A0system log, but don't know wher= e to find the panic log. If you can help point me there, I'll post it .= If it helps I'm on an iMac (late 2015) running MacOS11.1. Thank you!</d= iv><div class=3D"">=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m= argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;borde= r-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:bre= ak-word;line-break:after-white-space" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class= =3D""></div><div class=3D"">I do like the technique of booting from a drive= with a virgin OS on it.=C2=A0 I keep one of those, most people don't.<= br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div= ><div class=3D"">I don't, sadly. I"m hesitant to erase my internal= drive because the data loss (even with time machine) would be tough, but i= f nothing else works....</div><div class=3D"">=C2=A0</div><blockquote class= =3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bo= rder-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">= <div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class=3D""= ><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" c= lass=3D""><div class=3D"">On Mar 3, 2021, at 11:40 AM, Jeff Weinberger <= <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">jef= [email protected]</a>> wrote:</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><di= v dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:norm= al;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-a= lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spac= ing:0px;text-decoration:none" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><div= class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 3,= 2021 at 1:17 PM Matt Penna <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br clas= s=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px = 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(2= 04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break= :after-white-space" class=3D"">Whenever I encounter such a problem, my firs= t steps are to run Apple Hardware Test (AHT), and if that shows no problems= (it=E2=80=99s far from foolproof), try a completely clean install of the O= S to a blank drive. See if you can get any clues from either of these steps= .<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If you need AHT for y= our Mac, you can find it for many different Mac models here on GitHub:</div= ><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a href=3D"https://gi= thub.com/upekkha/AppleHardwareTest" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://gi= thub.com/upekkha/AppleHardwareTest</a></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">= </div><div class=3D"">Let us know how it goes.</div><div class=3D""><br cla= ss=3D""></div><div class=3D"">You mentioned that occasionally your Mac refu= ses to start up. Can you describe the crashes you=E2=80=99re seeing? Are yo= u getting the gray screen with a message that you need to restart your comp= uter, or is it just a reboot with no warning?</div></div></blockquote><div = class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It actually=C2=A0crashes wh= en I try to log in to my user account. It starts up slowly, but does start,= then I log in and I get the grey screen that says I need to reboot.</div><= div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I am able to log into a= n alternate user account, so I don't think it's hardware...but I= 9;ll give that a try.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class= =3D"">Thanks!</div><div class=3D"">=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q= uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-s= tyle:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style= =3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class=3D""><div clas= s=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"white-space:pre-= wrap" class=3D""> </span>Matt</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div clas= s=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">= <div class=3D"">On Mar 3, 2021, at 12:56 PM, Jeff Weinberger <<a href=3D= "mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">jeff@jeffwein= berger.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"l= tr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Than= k you for your help with SIMBL I removed all traces I could find of it and = it no longer appears in logs, crash reports, 'find' commands, etc.<= div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">May I impose on your co= llective expertise to help diagnose the ongoing crashes?<br class=3D""><div= class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But the system crashes hav= e not stopped. I have identified that it is the user account (I am the only= user of the system, so having my user account is kind of important). I onl= y have two use accounts: 1) mine and 2) a test account just in case there&#= 39;s a problem with mine - which=C2=A0there is.</div><div class=3D""><br cl= ass=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Every time I restart and then login to my ac= count my Mac crashes. When I log in to the test account, it is very slow, b= ut successfully logs in and I can do some testing.=C2=A0</div></div><div cl= ass=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I noticed some issues with on= e of my two external drives, so I have disconnected it. The crashes continu= e.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I see fr= om the log files that "cloudd" (the iCloud daemon) crashes very f= requently. I don't know if this is relevant.</div><div class=3D""><br c= lass=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Any help is appreciated!</div><div class=3D= ""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Here is the system.log file leading= up to the last crash:</div><div class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div><= /blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockq= uote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></= div></div></div><br class=3D""></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div c= lass=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div cl= ass=3D"">I have made progress, but am not sure how to resolve what seems to= be the issue. I see lots of disk access errors leading up to the crashes i= n system.log. Some are related to the startup disk being full (it's ver= y close to full). The crash logs show lots of crashes for 'ccloud' = - the iCloud sync agent. I have my iCloud account set to manage my disk spa= ce (moving older files to the cloud when there is little space left), so th= e disk should never get full. Because I do see new files from my iMac (the = one that crashes) on my iPhone/iPad in iCloud, it is syncing files, but I s= uspect it's crashing trying to move files to the cloud to make space on= my local device.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div clas= s=3D"">So I need to make space without losing files. Is there any way to fo= rce iCloud to move specified files to the cloud? I can think of other, more= complex, ways to fix this, and would appreciate suggestions.</div><div cla= ss=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thank you for all your help!</= div><div class=3D"">=C2=A0</div></div></div><span style=3D"font-family:Helv= etica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight= :normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfo= rm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none= ;display:inline!important" class=3D"">_____________________________________= __________</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-sty= le:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal= ;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo= rd-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:= Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-we= ight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra= nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:= none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">MacOSX-talk mailing list</span><b= r style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-vari= ant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t= ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text= -decoration:none" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" s= tyle=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant= -caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text= -indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" class= =3D"">[email protected]</a><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-= size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;let= ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi= te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none" class=3D""><a href= =3D"https://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-talk" style=3D"font-f= amily:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;f= ont-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;te= xt-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" class=3D"">https://w= ww.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-talk</a></div></blockquote></div><= br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div> </div></blockquote></div></blockquote></body></html> --000000000000270a4205bcc9d9fd-- --===============0130965469988240958== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ MacOSX-talk mailing list [email protected] https://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-talk --===============0130965469988240958==--