Re: FW: wxMaxima accessibility
<[email protected]> Thu, 16 Jul 2026 22:48:56 -0600
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.mathematics.maxima.general |
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Gunter,
=20
Sorry for the late response to your note. I was unavailable for a =
while.
=20
First, I'd like to thank you for following up on the issue of making =
WXMaxima more accessible to people using screen readers. This has come =
a long way since we tried this a few years ago. At least now my screen =
reader is "seeing" most of the text that is being displayed on the =
screen. That was not the case when we first tried this.
=20
I tried to answer as many of your questions below as I could, although I =
am not experienced with the UI and how WXMaxima works. Hopefully this =
will give you something to work with and I can provide more feedback as =
you make changes and I learn better how to work with WXMaxima and my =
JAWS screen reader.
=20
Before I provide my specific feedback, let me give some general feedback =
that might be helpful.
=20
People who use screen readers make use of numerous hotkeys to navigate =
around the computer screen. Although they can navigate around the =
screen one line at a time using up/down arrow or one character at a time =
using right/left arrows, this is very inefficient. Thus screen readers =
either make use of standard Windows hotkeys like tab/shift+tab to move =
from element to element in a tab sequence, a program designed to be =
accessible from the ground up will generally have its own set of hotkeys =
that can be used to take a variety of actions or efficiently move from =
one dialog to another. In this way, if the program itself provides such =
hotkeys, the program will work with ANY screen reder. Note: This can =
often make the work of sighted individuals more efficient.
=20
So, although JAWS can "see" many of the elements you have made =
accessible, many are difficult to get to.
=20
When a sidebar pops up for example, it would be nice if one could hit a =
hotkey such as F6 (which is often used to navigate from one dialog to =
another) to move focus to the Sidebar. Then the user can use =
Tab/shift+tab or right/left arrow to navigate through the buttons and =
then hit enter or space to activate a button.
=20
Hitting F6 again can then bring the user back to where focus was when =
they first hit F6 to move to the Sidebar.
=20
I notice that after hitting shift+enter to evaluate a cell, I have to =
arrow up to the output field, then arrow up again and hear only the =
label of the input field, then arrow up again to hear the label of the =
input field and its value along with the lable of the output field and =
its value. Would be nicer if there was a hotkey to move from input to =
output and a corresponding hotkey to move backwards.
=20
I have also seen other programs offer an assignable list of hotkeys that =
a user can customize depending on their workflow. For example, if the =
user often used the Greek symbol alpha, they might be able to assign a =
custom hotkey to automatically enter the alpha symbol without having to =
navigate through the various menus and dialog items.
=20
Anyway, I think this is great progress in the right direction and am =
happy to continue testing as progress is made. I certainly understand =
that this is a big job and can't be done overnight, but enough small =
steps do lead to longer term enhancements.
=20
=20
Below are the answers to most of the questions on your web page to the =
best of my ability. Let me know if you want more or if I can clarify =
anything. Thanks again for your efforts.
=20
--Pete
=20
Q&A's:
=20
[ASK TESTER] Is linear Maxima syntax the representation you want read =
aloud, or would you prefer verbalised math ("the fraction a plus b over =
c")?
A: I personally prefer a spoken output for simple or short expressions =
to be linear. Others may prefer otherwise. Perhaps this can be a =
setting that the user can choose.
=20
[ASK TESTER] Can you navigate the worksheet cell by cell and hear each =
input and its output?
A: One good thing about this build is that I can move around the screen =
and actually see (inbraille) and hear results! This is a big step =
forward since I could not "see"/hear any output in prior builds.
Q: It is still a bit unreliable to navigate from cell to cell or from =
input to output for a cell.Could there be a set of hotkeys to move to =
and from cell to cell and input to output? that would be helpful.
=20
[ASK TESTER] After you evaluate a cell, does your screen reader announce =
the result, or do you have to go looking for it? Do you want auto =
announcement (a live region), or is that noisy?
Candidate fix if wanted: fire an wxACC_EVENT_* (e.g. an alert / focus / =
value-change) on the new output cell when it arrives.
A: After evaluation, output is not automatically spoken. That would be =
nice if it were. Speech from screen readers can be cut off by hitting =
the control key. There are also ways of muting speech if desired.
=20
[ASK TESTER] Can you reach the toolbar, hear each tool's name and state, =
and activate one?
A: The pull-down menus work well using standard Windows hotkeys like =
alt+F for "File", alt+V for "View", etc.
I do not believe that JAWS is seeing any other toolbar. Here is what =
JAWS "sees" when the "Main Toolbar Menu" under "View" is checked:
=20
wxMaxima 26.07.0 (Windows 11 (build 26200), 64-bit edition) [ unsaved* ]
File Edit View Cell Maxima Equations Matrix Calculus Simplify List Plot =
Numeric Help
Maths
=20
If thatthe Main toolbar Menu is not checked, the last line containing =
"Maths" does not appear.
=20
Note: If the toolbar items can be made visible to JAWS, it would be nice =
to have a hotkey like F6 that, when pressed, will place focus on the =
first element of the Toolbar. Then one could presumably navigate among =
the various toolbar items by hitting tab/shift+tab or =
RightArrow/LeftArrow.
=20
=E2=9C=85 The custom Worksheet::AccessibilityInfo is now attached via =
SetAccessible() (it previously was created but never attached, so screen =
readers saw only
My comments: Yes, these items appear to be visible in the various =
Sidebars. The problem is that they are very inefficient to get to =
without the use of assigned hotkeys.
=20
For example, to get to the items in the "General Math" sidebar, here is =
what I have to do:
1. Hit alt+V - This opens to the Sidebars menu item
2. Either hit Enter or RightArrow to open the list of items under =
Sidebars
3. Arrow down to the desired Sidebar and hit enter
4. Get into a special navigation mode with the screen reader so that =
I can navigate through the various items in that Sidebar.
Note: The text in the Sidebars I tested does seem to be accessible to =
JAWS. Also, the elements do appear as buttons that can be activated by =
hitting enter or spacebar. Nice! =20
=20
5. Menus =E2=80=94 =E2=9A=A0=EF=B8=8F (believed OK)
My comment: Pull down menus work as expected with standard Windows =
hotkeys. All labels seems correct and are accessible.
=20
The config dialog, find/replace, and the code-generating wizards are =
built from standard wx controls (wxTextCtrl, wxButton, wxChoice, =
wxSpinCtrl), which carry native accessibility. Main risks: (a) controls =
whose label is a separate wxStaticText not associated with the field =
(screen reader may not tie label to input), (b) any custom-drawn preview =
panels (SvgPanel shows an image with no accessible name). Lower priority =
than the worksheet/sidebars. [ASK TESTER] as they come up.
A: Not sure what to do here. =20
One thing I note is that a help ToolTip does appear upon startup, but =
unless the user knows to look for it, the tooltip is not automatically =
spoken when Maxima starts. There may be issues with the screen reader =
not speaking or giving focus to dialogs that pop up automatically.
=20
7. Status bar =E2=80=94 =E2=9A=A0=EF=B8=8F (believed OK, standard =
control)
My Comment: If there is a status bar at the bottom of the page, I am not =
seeing it.
=20
[ASK TESTER] batch =E2=80=94 validate the fixes already shipped =
(worksheet as a document + cell navigation, toolbar tools, sidebar =
names) and answer the output-announcement and math-representation =
questions. These shape everything else and need the most lead time.
A: Most text is now visible and accessible to screen reader. =20
=20
CharButton Greek/Symbols/Math sidebar buttons =E2=86=92 real accessible =
buttons with descriptive names. (High impact: many buttons, and =
Definition already has the text.)
A: Names of Greek symbols now appear to screen reader. They are not =
appearing as buttons as they do in the other Sidebars, but JAWS can =
"see" the names.
=20
Output announcement live region (if the tester wants it).
A: When I evaluate a cell with shift+enter, JAWS is not automatically =
speaking this. this is a surprise since JAWS usually speaks all new =
text written to the dialog that has focus. Not sure why this is. Maybe =
focus is moving someplace else?
=20
=20
=20
From: Gunter K=C3=B6nigsmann <[email protected]>=20
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2026 11:44 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Maxima-discuss] FW: wxMaxima accessibility
=20
Ok... ...Antrhropic Opus has build test benches that instantiate GUI =
elements from wxMaxima and then simulate a screen reader. It has =
uploaded that to a virtual windows computer that compiled it, tried to =
run it and send the output back. After several round trips recons that =
the last wxMaxima nightly =
(https://wolfgang.dautermann.at/maxima/nightlybuild/) now has screen =
reader support.
As the AI neither actually uses a real screen reader nor knows what to =
expect from it nor do I it came up with loads of questions on how to =
make that support usable now and with a plan on what to do when there =
are answers: =
https://github.com/wxMaxima-developers/wxmaxima/blob/main/ACCESSIBILITY.m=
d
Until the 7th of this month I even have access to a Mythos grade AI that =
would be able to resolve big tasks, would they arise.
Kind regards,
Gunter.
On 5/23/26 18:30, [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> =
wrote:
Richard,
=20
I seem to recall something about MathReader from the distant past, but =
didn=E2=80=99t really know what it was.
=20
I did listen to the demo from following your link to GitHub. Sounds =
like a nice idea.
=20
I don=E2=80=99t know all of the capabilities of MathReader or when this =
project came out, but one thing I noticed in the demo was that the tool =
spoke entire expressions as if one would read text. Although that is =
okay for simple expressions, I think one really needs to have the =
capability of navigating through more complex expressions on demand. =
Think of how a sighted person would read a complex expression. They =
would probably scan back and forth through such expressions, sometimes =
focusing on just a particular part in order to digest it.
=20
MathML is an excellent approach for digesting and navigating through =
complex expressions. Most screen readers support MathML very well these =
days and allow the user to readily navigate through complex expressions =
one sub-expression at a time, including nested sub-expressions.
=20
Perhaps MathReader would be useful for people dealing with simple math =
and who were not familiar or facile with MathML. This might include =
making textbooks more accessible for grade school students or =
undergraduate students. =20
=20
Anyway, thanks for the reference. Interesting work.
=20
--Pete
=20
From: Richard Fateman <mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected]>=20
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2026 9:03 AM
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>=20
Subject: Re: [Maxima-discuss] FW: wxMaxima accessibility
=20
Hi Peter
Have you tried Mathreader?
https://github.com/AIDASLab/MathReader
=20
I have not tried it, but I came across it looking for a reference to =
T.V. Raman's Aster project
from years ago.
Doing OCR from handwritten math and converting it to audio seems to =
have many opportunities for
errors, but so many people are making so many claims for AI, it is hard =
to know what to believe.
=20
Best regards
Richard
=20
=20
=20
=20
On Fri, May 22, 2026 at 3:46=E2=80=AFPM <[email protected] =
<mailto:[email protected]> > wrote:
Gunter,
=20
Thanks for giving this a try. =20
=20
To answer the question for another poster, I assume that this is an =
attempt to make WX Maxima useable by a blind person (like myself) who =
uses a screen reader like JAWS (the top commercial screen reader), =
Narrator *built into Windows), or Voiceover (built into Mac), etc. Such =
screen readers rely on knowing what text chunks are being sent to =
various parts of the display (rather than bitmapped images) so that the =
screen reader can speak the text or display it on a braille display. =
This is not an easy task for a program that is highly graphical in =
nature.
=20
When I use maxima, I use the command line version and display text in a =
1D format since screen readers only speak what is on the current line. =
The alternative is to use MathML in an HTML window since screen readers =
can now display MathML very well and enable the user to navigate =
expressions along with various levels of sub-expressions using MathML. =
Before I retired as a research scientist at Xerox (many moon ago!) I =
used to use Maple in a similar fashion =E2=80=93 command line mode with =
1D expressions (since that was before the time MathML was supported by =
screen readers).
=20
Anyway, I would be curious to give this a shot when you feel it is ready =
to test.
=20
If you remember, you might send me a separate note at:
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>=20
Since I do not regularly keep up with this list.
=20
Thanks and good luck.
=20
--Pete
=20
From: Gunter K=C3=B6nigsmann <[email protected] =
<mailto:[email protected]> >=20
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2026 3:09 AM
To: [email protected] =
<mailto:[email protected]> ; [email protected] =
<mailto:[email protected]>=20
Subject: wxMaxima accessibility
=20
Dear all,
No idea if that will work out, but - a few years ago I tried to add =
accessibility to wxMaxima, but to no avail.
Now a colleague of mine has convinced me to try an AI abonnement. The AI =
cannot really test it - at least on my computer, but I wanted to =
announce that one of the first jobs I am giving to the AI is to try =
again to add accessibility to wxMaxima. The result was loads of code =
changes. Currently a different AI model is trying to review that code. =
With a big bit of luck tomorrow's Nightly Build will actually provide =
some accessibility. If it does any feedback you send me will be =
forwarded to the AI that will try to improve things.
My current impression is:
1. AI is no silver bullet.
2. It tends to try to convince you that it did a good job. If the =
summary focusses on how good that job was - it often knows it didn't =
manage to make it work and hopes you'll never test.
3. If it doesn't find a bug it might just do random changes to the code =
hoping that will help, but
4. it is excellent at some jobs human beings aren't good at,
5. it has resolved many problems I've been trying to resolve for years =
and
6. sometimes finding a solution is an iterative task when dealing with =
an AI - as it is when dealing with human beings.
Kind regards,
Gunter.
_______________________________________________
Maxima-discuss mailing list
[email protected] =
<mailto:[email protected]>=20
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/maxima-discuss
_______________________________________________
Maxima-discuss mailing list
[email protected] =
<mailto:[email protected]>=20
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/maxima-discuss
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class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Gunter,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sorry for =
the late response to your note.=C2=A0 I was unavailable for a =
while.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>First, I'd like to thank you for following up on the =
issue of making WXMaxima more accessible to people using screen =
readers.=C2=A0 This has come a long way since we tried this a few years =
ago.=C2=A0 At least now my screen reader is "seeing" most of =
the text that is being displayed on the screen.=C2=A0 That was not the =
case when we first tried this.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I tried to =
answer as many of your questions below as I could, although I am not =
experienced with the UI and how WXMaxima works.=C2=A0 Hopefully this =
will give you something to work with and I can provide more feedback as =
you make changes and I learn better how to work with WXMaxima and my =
JAWS screen reader.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Before I =
provide my specific feedback, let me give some general feedback that =
might be helpful.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>People who =
use screen readers make use of numerous hotkeys to navigate around the =
computer screen.=C2=A0 Although they can navigate around the screen one =
line at a time using up/down arrow or one character at a time using =
right/left arrows, this is very inefficient.=C2=A0 Thus screen readers =
either make use of standard Windows hotkeys like tab/shift+tab to move =
from element to element in a tab sequence, a program designed to be =
accessible from the ground up will generally have its own set of hotkeys =
that can be used to take a variety of actions or efficiently move from =
one dialog to another.=C2=A0 In this way, if the program itself provides =
such hotkeys, the program will work with ANY screen reder.=C2=A0 Note: =
This can often make the work of sighted individuals more =
efficient.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>So, although JAWS can "see" many of the =
elements you have made accessible, many are difficult to get =
to.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>When a sidebar pops up for example, it would be nice =
if one could hit a hotkey such as F6 (which is often used to navigate =
from one dialog to another) to move focus to the Sidebar.=C2=A0 Then the =
user can use Tab/shift+tab or right/left arrow to navigate through the =
buttons and then hit enter or space to activate a =
button.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hitting F6 again can then bring the user back to where =
focus was when they first hit F6 to move to the =
Sidebar.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I notice that after hitting shift+enter to evaluate a =
cell, I have to arrow up to the output field, then arrow up again and =
hear only the label of the input field, then arrow up again to hear the =
label of the input field and its value along with the lable of the =
output field and its value.=C2=A0 Would be nicer if there was a hotkey =
to move from input to output and a corresponding hotkey to move =
backwards.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I have also seen other programs offer an assignable =
list of hotkeys that a user can customize depending on their =
workflow.=C2=A0 For example, if the user often used the Greek symbol =
alpha, they might be able to assign a custom hotkey to automatically =
enter the alpha symbol without having to navigate through the various =
menus and dialog items.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Anyway, I =
think this is great progress in the right direction and am happy to =
continue testing as progress is made.=C2=A0 I certainly understand that =
this is a big job and can't be done overnight, but enough small steps do =
lead to longer term enhancements.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Below are =
the answers to most of the questions on your web page to the best of my =
ability.=C2=A0 Let me know if you want more or if I can clarify =
anything.=C2=A0 Thanks again for your efforts.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--Pete<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Q&A's:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>[ASK TESTER] =
Is linear Maxima syntax the representation you want read aloud, or would =
you prefer verbalised math ("the fraction a plus b over =
c")?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>A: I personally prefer a =
spoken output for simple or short expressions to be linear.=C2=A0 Others =
may prefer otherwise.=C2=A0 Perhaps this can be a setting that the user =
can choose.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>[ASK TESTER] Can you navigate the worksheet cell by =
cell and hear each input and its output?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>A: One good thing about this build is that I can move =
around the screen and actually see (inbraille) and hear results!=C2=A0 =
This is a big step forward since I could not "see"/hear any =
output in prior builds.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Q: It is =
still a bit unreliable to navigate from cell to cell or from input to =
output for a cell.Could there be a set of hotkeys to move to and from =
cell to cell and input to output?=C2=A0 that would be =
helpful.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>[ASK TESTER] After you evaluate a cell, does your =
screen reader announce the result, or do you have to go looking for it? =
Do you want auto announcement (a live region), or is that =
noisy?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Candidate fix if wanted: fire =
an wxACC_EVENT_* (e.g. an alert / focus / value-change) on the new =
output cell when it arrives.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>A: After =
evaluation, output is not automatically spoken.=C2=A0 That would be nice =
if it were.=C2=A0 Speech from screen readers can be cut off by hitting =
the control key.=C2=A0 There are also ways of muting speech if =
desired.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>[ASK TESTER] Can you reach the toolbar, hear each =
tool's name and state, and activate one?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>A:=C2=A0 The pull-down menus work well using standard =
Windows hotkeys like alt+F for "File", alt+V for =
"View", etc.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I do not =
believe that JAWS is seeing any other toolbar.=C2=A0 Here is what JAWS =
"sees" when the "Main Toolbar Menu" under =
"View" is checked:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>wxMaxima =
26.07.0 (Windows 11 (build 26200), 64-bit edition) [ unsaved* =
]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>File Edit View Cell Maxima =
Equations Matrix Calculus Simplify List Plot Numeric =
Help<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Maths<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>If thatthe =
Main toolbar Menu is not checked, the last line containing =
"Maths" does not appear.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Note: If the =
toolbar items can be made visible to JAWS, it would be nice to have a =
hotkey like F6 that, when pressed, will place focus on the first element =
of the Toolbar.=C2=A0 Then one could presumably navigate among the =
various toolbar items by hitting tab/shift+tab or =
RightArrow/LeftArrow.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>=E2=9C=85</span> The =
custom Worksheet::AccessibilityInfo is now attached via SetAccessible() =
(it previously was created but never attached, so screen readers saw =
only<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>My comments: Yes, these items =
appear to be visible in the various Sidebars.=C2=A0 The problem is that =
they are very inefficient to get to without the use of assigned =
hotkeys.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>For example, to get to the items in the "General =
Math" sidebar, here is what I have to do:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>=C2=A0 1.=C2=A0 Hit alt+V - This opens to the Sidebars =
menu item<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=C2=A0 2.=C2=A0 Either hit =
Enter or RightArrow to open the list of items under =
Sidebars<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=C2=A0 3.=C2=A0 Arrow down =
to the desired Sidebar and hit enter<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>=C2=A0 4.=C2=A0 Get into a special navigation mode =
with the screen reader so that I can navigate through the various items =
in that Sidebar.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Note: The text in =
the Sidebars I tested does seem to be accessible to JAWS.=C2=A0 Also, =
the elements do appear as buttons that can be activated by hitting enter =
or spacebar.=C2=A0 Nice!=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>5. Menus =
=E2=80=94 <span style=3D'font-family:"Segoe UI =
Emoji",sans-serif'>=E2=9A=A0=EF=B8=8F</span> (believed =
OK)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>My comment: Pull down menus work =
as expected with standard Windows hotkeys.=C2=A0 All labels seems =
correct and are accessible.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The config =
dialog, find/replace, and the code-generating wizards are built from =
standard wx controls (wxTextCtrl, wxButton, wxChoice, wxSpinCtrl), which =
carry native accessibility. Main risks: (a) controls whose label is a =
separate wxStaticText not associated with the field (screen reader may =
not tie label to input), (b) any custom-drawn preview panels (SvgPanel =
shows an image with no accessible name). Lower priority than the =
worksheet/sidebars. [ASK TESTER] as they come up.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>A: Not sure what to do here.=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>One thing I note is that a help ToolTip does appear =
upon startup, but unless the user knows to look for it, the tooltip is =
not automatically spoken when Maxima starts.=C2=A0 There may be issues =
with the screen reader not speaking or giving focus to dialogs that pop =
up automatically.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>7. Status =
bar =E2=80=94 <span style=3D'font-family:"Segoe UI =
Emoji",sans-serif'>=E2=9A=A0=EF=B8=8F</span> (believed OK, standard =
control)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>My Comment: If there is a =
status bar at the bottom of the page, I am not seeing =
it.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>[ASK TESTER] batch =E2=80=94 validate the fixes =
already shipped (worksheet as a document + cell navigation, toolbar =
tools, sidebar names) and answer the output-announcement and =
math-representation questions. These shape everything else and need the =
most lead time.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>A: Most text is now =
visible and accessible to screen reader.=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>CharButton =
Greek/Symbols/Math sidebar buttons =E2=86=92 real accessible buttons =
with descriptive names. (High impact: many buttons, and Definition =
already has the text.)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>A: Names of =
Greek symbols now appear to screen reader.=C2=A0 They are not appearing =
as buttons as they do in the other Sidebars, but JAWS can =
"see" the names.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Output =
announcement live region (if the tester wants it).<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>A: When I evaluate a cell with shift+enter, JAWS is =
not automatically speaking this.=C2=A0 this is a surprise since JAWS =
usually speaks all new text written to the dialog that has focus.=C2=A0 =
Not sure why this is.=C2=A0 Maybe focus is moving someplace =
else?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Gunter K=C3=B6nigsmann <[email protected]> <br><b>Sent:</b> =
Friday, July 3, 2026 11:44 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
[email protected]; =
[email protected]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Maxima-discuss] FW: wxMaxima =
accessibility<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p>Ok... ...Antrhropic Opus has =
build test benches that instantiate GUI elements from wxMaxima and then =
simulate a screen reader. It has uploaded that to a virtual windows =
computer that compiled it, tried to run it and send the output =
back. After several round trips recons that the last wxMaxima =
nightly (<a =
href=3D"https://wolfgang.dautermann.at/maxima/nightlybuild/">https://wolf=
gang.dautermann.at/maxima/nightlybuild/</a>) now has screen reader =
support.<o:p></o:p></p><p>As the AI neither actually uses a real screen =
reader nor knows what to expect from it nor do I it came up with loads =
of questions on how to make that support usable now and with a plan on =
what to do when there are answers: <a =
href=3D"https://github.com/wxMaxima-developers/wxmaxima/blob/main/ACCESSI=
BILITY.md">https://github.com/wxMaxima-developers/wxmaxima/blob/main/ACCE=
SSIBILITY.md</a><o:p></o:p></p><p>Until the 7th of this month I even =
have access to a Mythos grade AI that would be able to resolve big =
tasks, would they arise.<o:p></o:p></p><p>Kind =
regards,<o:p></o:p></p><p> Gunter.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On 5/23/26 18:30, <a =
href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Richard,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I seem to =
recall something about MathReader from the distant past, but =
didn=E2=80=99t really know what it was.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I did listen =
to the demo from following your link to GitHub. Sounds like a nice =
idea.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I don=E2=80=99t know all of the capabilities of =
MathReader or when this project came out, but one thing I noticed in the =
demo was that the tool spoke entire expressions as if one would read =
text. Although that is okay for simple expressions, I think one =
really needs to have the capability of navigating through more complex =
expressions on demand. Think of how a sighted person would read a =
complex expression. They would probably scan back and forth =
through such expressions, sometimes focusing on just a particular part =
in order to digest it.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>MathML is an =
excellent approach for digesting and navigating through complex =
expressions. Most screen readers support MathML very well these =
days and allow the user to readily navigate through complex expressions =
one sub-expression at a time, including nested =
sub-expressions.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Perhaps =
MathReader would be useful for people dealing with simple math and who =
were not familiar or facile with MathML. This might include making =
textbooks more accessible for grade school students or undergraduate =
students. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Anyway, =
thanks for the reference. Interesting work.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>--Pete<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Richard Fateman <a =
href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><[email protected]></a> =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 23, 2026 9:03 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><br><b>Subject=
:</b> Re: [Maxima-discuss] FW: wxMaxima =
accessibility</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Hi =
Peter</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> Have you tried =
Mathreader?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/AIDASLab/MathReader">https://github.com/AIDASL=
ab/MathReader</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>I have =
not tried it, but I came across it looking for a reference to T.V. =
Raman's Aster project</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>from years =
ago.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> Doing OCR from =
handwritten math and converting it to audio seems to have many =
opportunities for</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>errors, but so many people are =
making so many claims for AI, it is hard to know what to =
believe.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> =
Best regards</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Richard</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Fri, May =
22, 2026 at 3:46<span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>=E2=80=AF</span>PM <<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Gunter,<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thanks for =
giving this a try. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>To answer =
the question for another poster, I assume that this is an attempt to =
make WX Maxima useable by a blind person (like myself) who uses a screen =
reader like JAWS (the top commercial screen reader), Narrator *built =
into Windows), or Voiceover (built into Mac), etc. Such screen =
readers rely on knowing what text chunks are being sent to various parts =
of the display (rather than bitmapped images) so that the screen reader =
can speak the text or display it on a braille display. This is not =
an easy task for a program that is highly graphical in =
nature.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>When I use =
maxima, I use the command line version and display text in a 1D format =
since screen readers only speak what is on the current line. The =
alternative is to use MathML in an HTML window since screen readers can =
now display MathML very well and enable the user to navigate expressions =
along with various levels of sub-expressions using MathML. Before =
I retired as a research scientist at Xerox (many moon ago!) I used to =
use Maple in a similar fashion =E2=80=93 command line mode with 1D =
expressions (since that was before the time MathML was supported by =
screen readers).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Anyway, I =
would be curious to give this a shot when you feel it is ready to =
test.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>If you =
remember, you might send me a separate note at:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a =
href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Since I do =
not regularly keep up with this list.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thanks and =
good luck.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>--Pete<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor =
currentcolor'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
Gunter K=C3=B6nigsmann <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> =
Wednesday, May 20, 2026 3:09 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br><b>Subject:</b> wxMaxima =
accessibility</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p>Dear all,<o:p></o:p></p><p>No idea if that will work out, =
but - a few years ago I tried to add accessibility to wxMaxima, but to =
no avail.<o:p></o:p></p><p>Now a colleague of mine has convinced me to =
try an AI abonnement. The AI cannot really test it - at least on my =
computer, but I wanted to announce that one of the first jobs I am =
giving to the AI is to try again to add accessibility to wxMaxima. The =
result was loads of code changes. Currently a different AI model is =
trying to review that code. With a big bit of luck tomorrow's Nightly =
Build will actually provide some accessibility. If it does any feedback =
you send me will be forwarded to the AI that will try to improve =
things.<o:p></o:p></p><p>My current impression is:<o:p></o:p></p><ol =
start=3D1 type=3D1><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo3'>AI is no silver bullet.<o:p></o:p></li><li =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo3'>It tends to try to convince you that it did a good job. If =
the summary focusses on how good that job was - it often knows it didn't =
manage to make it work and hopes you'll never test.<o:p></o:p></li><li =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo3'>If it doesn't find a bug it might just do random changes to =
the code hoping that will help, but<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo3'>it is excellent at some jobs human beings aren't good =
at,<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo3'>it has resolved many problems I've been trying to resolve =
for years and<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo3'>sometimes finding a solution is an iterative task when =
dealing with an AI - as it is when dealing with human =
beings.<o:p></o:p></li></ol><p>Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></p><p> =
Gunter.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>Maxi=
ma-discuss mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" =
target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/maxima-discuss" =
target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/maxima-dis=
cuss</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>_______________________=
________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Maxima-discuss mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Maxima-discuss@lists=
.sourceforge.net</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/maxima-discuss">http=
s://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/maxima-discuss</a><o:p></o:p></p=
re></blockquote></div></body></html>
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