Re: NS 7.2 Duplicating Bookmarks File.

Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:

> Rufus wrote:
> 
>> Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
>>
>>> Rufus wrote:
>>>
>>>> Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Rufus wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rufus wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rufus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Rufus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For some reason, NS 7.2 (under OS X - 10.4.3 to be specific) 
>>>>>>>>>>>> is duplicating my Bookmarks file on Quit.  Any suggestions 
>>>>>>>>>>>> on how to make it stop?  I've tried fresh installs and 
>>>>>>>>>>>> checking Permissions on the file.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Try this.
>>>>>>>>>>> Netscape OFF
>>>>>>>>>>> Remove the bookmarks.html file from the profile (and any 
>>>>>>>>>>> duplicates)
>>>>>>>>>>> store it on the desktop
>>>>>>>>>>> Restart Netscape
>>>>>>>>>>> your bookmark file should be empty (or revert to default list)
>>>>>>>>>>> add one bookmark (just one)
>>>>>>>>>>> Quit Netscape.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If the bookmarks file was NOT duplicated on Quit, then
>>>>>>>>>>> with Netscape OFF
>>>>>>>>>>>      put the bookmarks.html file back into the profile, 
>>>>>>>>>>> allowing it to overwrite (replace) the 'newer' one already there
>>>>>>>>>>> Restare and quit again, let us know the results
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If it was duplicated, please report back
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That didn't work - in fact, now I'm seeing something new.  It 
>>>>>>>>>> looks as if a duplicate bookmarks file is being created and 
>>>>>>>>>> deleted (the file name bookmarks-1.html flashes up and is then 
>>>>>>>>>> removed)...I saw this on a startup, and also on a few exits.  
>>>>>>>>>> I also saw it during navigation to new sites.  On shut down, 
>>>>>>>>>> the duplicate file sometimes was deleted, and somtimes was 
>>>>>>>>>> not.  It didn't seem consistant in the few attempt I tried 
>>>>>>>>>> this morning.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'll also add that I looked at a NS profile on a friend's 
>>>>>>>>>> machine and found the same (numerous) duplication of the 
>>>>>>>>>> Bookmaks file.  He hadn't noticed because he mostly uses Safari.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What do you mean 'didnt work'?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I asked you to do something and then report back on the results.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Remove the bookmarks file from the profile with Netscape OFF
>>>>>>>>> (and remove any duplicates as well)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Restart Netscape and quit
>>>>>>>>> did the duplicate bookmark file get generated?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Restart Netsceap and add one bookmark, then quit
>>>>>>>>> did the duplicate bookmark file get generated?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is not a 'fix' this is a test to determine where the 
>>>>>>>>> problem lies
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes - I did just what you described.  The problem/behavior still 
>>>>>>>> persists, with the additional observations I described above - 
>>>>>>>> that WAS the result of performing your suggestion.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've also had this input from another source - it's a Firefox 
>>>>>>>> bug report, but similar behavior:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=294584
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'll add to this that I already have (and have had) my Mozilla 
>>>>>>>> and Profile folders included in my Spotlight Privacy list.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Care to let us in on the results of the test?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Did or did not the duplicate bookmark file get recreated on quit?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes - it was recreated on quit.  But not consistantly.  (I ran 
>>>>>> several tests.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With the default bookmark file?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With the modified (add one bookmark) file?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Answers for each step would be appreciatted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AND - in addition, it was also being duplicated during transitions 
>>>>>> between web pages, which is something I hadn't seen before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ah. 'but not consistantly'...
>>>>>
>>>>> try to ascertain the changes made that caused the bookmark 
>>>>> duplication to take place.  If it doesnt occur EVERY time then 
>>>>> there must be some variable that is contributing to the event, and 
>>>>> tracking down that variable is the key.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ...and that's precisely the problem.  I had changed nothing when all 
>>>> this started.  The new behavior happened after I tryed your 
>>>> suggestion, and the duplication after navigation to different web 
>>>> pages was a new observation.  I'll add that I've since seen the 
>>>> duplication on startup as well...AND I've also seen it in two 
>>>> different Profiles under the same install where  the only difference 
>>>> is the size of the Bookmarks file (number of bookmarks).  I've also 
>>>> seen it on a fresh, pristine install on a new machine.  So it's 
>>>> really random.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A computer program is, in essence, a really 'dumb' thing. It will 
>>>>> do something over and over again, always the same way, if nothing 
>>>>> changes. So the fact that the duplication DOESNT occur at times 
>>>>> indicates that there is some variable in your setup that is 
>>>>> contributing to the problem.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I evaluate operational aircraft system software for a living, and 
>>>> from my experience with conditional branching in near-realtime 
>>>> assembly language (and C++) programs - yes, programs can produce 
>>>> seemingly random and difficult to duplicate behaviors.  But I 
>>>> digress...this is a different program.
>>>>
>>>> Hence tracking down the bug report I cited.  I think it's also 
>>>> interesting that I've seen it on multiple machines - two of my own, 
>>>> and one that isn't.  It's definately a known NS-Mozilla bug, but no 
>>>> one seems to have squashed it yet.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Something seems amiss here.
>>>
>>> First you report it on one machine, then two, now three?
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes - once I couldn't get a handle on it in my base set up, I looked 
>> at another machine; one belonging to a friend.  And as I just took 
>> delivery of a brand new 15" Powerbook I was also able to observe the 
>> same thing on a freash install.
>>
>>> First you report it as occurring on quit, then on browsing, now on 
>>> startup?
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes - I am seeing new behavior presumably as a result of performing 
>> your suggestion.  Previously I had only looked for the behavior on 
>> Quit.  I took my observations further after performing your 
>> suggestion, and made additional notes.
>>
>>>
>>> The bug you cite seems to have been identified as a problem with 
>>> Spotlight, not Mozilla. Has been reported as
>>> Apple, radar ID 4188208.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes - I had seen this previously and thus had set Spotlight not to 
>> index my Mozilla folder as someone else had suggested.  The bug persists.
>>
>>> While there are reports of this occuring on OS 10.3 as well as 10.4, 
>>> the 10.4 seems to have been satisfied by setting Spotlight not to 
>>> index the Firefox profile. 10.3 issues are not as clear, but seem 
>>> related to having the file locked or read only, a permissions issue
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes - I have Repaired Permissions, and am still seeing it on a fresh 
>> install.  I have even gone so far as to verify and match Permission 
>> settings on the file manually between the fresh install and my old 
>> machine.  So if it IS a Permissions issue, then Mozillia is 
>> mis-setting them at install.  Either way, I can verify that the bug 
>> still is stilll extant with 10.4.3 - across three independant machines.
>>
>>>
>>> My suggestin was to remove the bookmarks file, quit and restart, 
>>> where did the browsing bit come from? 
>>
>>
>>
>> It was something I decided to try once I noted that the file was being 
>> inconsistantly duplcated but did not persist (the "flashing" I noted) 
>> after several start/quit attempts.  I noted that on occasion, I would 
>> get multiple duplication within a single session, sometimes not.  So I 
>> persued the cause - what I found was that navigation between web pages 
>> sometimes caused the Bookmarks file to be duplicated, along with an 
>> additional duplication at shutdown.  BUT - the duplication appears to 
>> be "random" - it can depend on the length of the session, or the 
>> number of pages visited.  I tried the same page several times and it 
>> did not always occur.  I'm stumped.
>>
>> And as I stated, it was a means of
>>
>>> testing. By introducing unknown variables into the test sequence, you 
>>> have diminished any value of the test.
>>
>>
>>
>> I was trying to both make all of the variables known, and to further 
>> quantify the extent of the behavior.  I added a new test and reported 
>> on it when I saw a new behavior.  Then I attempted to repeat all tests 
>> on another device.  That's what I do, and have done, professionally.  
>> For the last 15-odd years.
>>
>>>
>>> If it was a NS or Mozilla bug, then why dont ALL users of OS X see it?
>>> It doesnt occur on 10.2, and turning off Spotlight indexing on 10.4 
>>> quashes it there, the jury is still out on 10.3 it seems.
>>
>>
>>
>> Actually, I can personally report that it DOES occur in 10.2.  That 
>> was where I first saw it, and I still maintain my original 10.2 boot 
>> drive and am still seeing it there if I boot into my 10.2.8 install.  
>> After looking at my friend's machine (10.4.3), I'm convinced that this 
>> is just under reported by users - how many people really look into the 
>> contents of their Mozilla folder and watchit while they are surfing 
>> around anyway?  My friend certainly didn't, and I was certainly 
>> surprized when I verified the behavior on his machine.
>>
>>>
>>> Turning off Spotlight indexing of the Firefox profile would seem to 
>>> be the answer in your case.
>>
>>
>>
>> No - I can verify that it is not the answer, because that has been how 
>> I have been configured for ALL of these tests on my base machine - 
>> ever since I first saw the bug under 10.2.  That was the first "fix" I 
>> ever tried.
>>
> 
> The problem has never occurred on any of my machines, nor on most other 
> macs I have had occasion to visit (and personally check the profile 
> folder).
> 
> Funny, you now say turning off Spotlight was your first 'fix' attempted. 
> Strange, 10.2 and 10.3 dont even have Spotlight! You mean you simply 
> ignored the problem prior to the advent of 10.4 and Spotlight?

Yes - I mis-spoke there.  Adding my Mozilla and Profile folders to my 
Spotlight exceptions was the first thing I tried under 10.4 after 
inquiring in another forum.  I've simply lived with the issue under 
10.2, since no one could give me any other advice than to 
check/verify/repair permissions on the file and folders.  I skipped 
10.3, so I only have experience with 10.2 and 10.4.  If people say it 
doesn't happen under 10.3, I'll have to take their word...that's 
certainly possible.  But based on what's going on on my machines, I 
can't connect the problem directly to Spotlight - unless the problem 
will persist if the folder was ever indexed.

It feels to me more like NS is having some sort of issue with access 
(presumably write access) to the base file somewhere.  Maybe Spotlight 
does or could have the file busy when NS is attempting to write to it 
(but it shouldn't under 10.2, and with the folder included in my 
Spotlight exceptions), but so far I haven't noted any bookmarks missing 
in the base file when I add new ones, quit, trash the duplicates, and 
start a new session.

> 
> I dont see it as 'under reported' by users, most users simply dont 
> experience the problem, at least thats what I gather from users reports. 
> The number of times I have asked users to check the profile (in the 
> course of 'testing/fixing' another problem) is literally in the 
> thousands - I think they would have noticed if there were 
> dozens/hundreds of bookmark files there.

I find that interesting, as I've seen it on three independent 
machines/setups, and for two independent users.  I haven't seen 
"hundreds" of bookmark files, but in some instances as many as a dozen 
created over a single session.  I just delete all but the base file 
after each session.  Been doing that for a long time now - since 10.2. 
BTW - what got me started looking in there in the first place was the 
"dissapearing bookmarks" problem we used to see with NS 6.x, 7.0, and 
7.1.  Haven't seen that one under 7.2 - but I'm still in the habit of 
backing up my Bookmarks file.

I my experience, a user can get focused on chasing one problem and not 
see all of the contributing issues or note a new/side issue encountered 
along the way that is attributable - that's why we work in teams on the 
aircraft software I evaluate.  I still think that if more folks looked, 
more would find this going on.

> 
> yep, YOU are seeing the problem, but it ISNT affecting most other users. 
> Yep, it IS a problem, but MOST users (using bugzilla as a guide) report 
> turning off Spotlight (on 10.4) fixes the problem. Most users (again 
> using bugzilla as a guide) dont see it on 10.3, unless there is another 
> separate 'permissions' issue extant, and most users never saw it on 10.2 
> at all. That YOU see it on all three may indicate that something in the 
> way you set up your system may be a contributing factor. Thats not to 
> say that your setup is incorrect, only sufficiently different from the 
> norm to occasion this problem.
> 

Then it sounds like I better report it in detail.  I can verify that two 
users on two independant machines see the same thing.  That was an 
attempt to obviate any setup issues by looking at differences - we 
certainly don't share the same setup.  I can say the same about 
including a third machine in my "survey".  That made me quit thinking 
about hardware.

But you've got me to thinking that maybe I need to change my tact to 
looking for a common thread between all of the instances...what I 
haven't found yet is a machine that this is not happening on.  That 
would help.  I thought my fresh install on a factory fresh machine would 
produce one...but it didn't.

> The real problem is, that the developers CANNOT invoke the problem 
> reliably (aside from Spotlight in 10.4) to be able to figure out what 
> the heck is going on. You cant fix what you cant see. Since you are in a 
> unique situation of experiencing the problem on multiple machines, on 
> multiple systems, then perhaps by contributing more to bugzilla you can 
> assist with a true 'fix' for this problem. By testing/changing your 
> system parameters, you may be able to come across one (or multiple in 
> combination) setting that contributes to the problem.

How many times have I heard THAT at work...

But you've hit on the crux of the problem - it is not very reliably 
duplicatable/repeatable.  In fact, I've exited two sessions this morning 
without seeing any duplication...and then exited another and seen four 
duplicates; presumably generated as a function of the number of sites I 
visited or the length of the session.  I've also seen the "flashing" 
behavior I noted - where the file is duplicated, but does not 
persist...that one really has me puzzled.  I've looked at mutiple 
machines and multiple setups to validate that the bug is not "unique" to 
one system or one user.

BTW - I've just updated my two systems (a G4/500 Sawtooth and a brand 
new 15" G4 Powerbook) to 10.4.4 this morning, and can now report that I 
am still seeing this problem under 10.4.4 as well - on both machines; 
but more so on the Powerbook so far.

-- 
      - Rufus