RE: STIX fonts for clients

So Mozilla Firefox is planning on doing a sub-standard job of installing fonts based on the idea that it is the only game in town as far as MathML support is concerned? Bad idea, I think. They should bite the bullet and do the job right.

Paul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 
> [email protected] 
> [mailto:[email protected]
> .org] On Behalf Of [email protected]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 3:24 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: STIX fonts for clients
> 
> Hi Paul,
> 
> Mozilla Firefox is the only browser with good native MathML support.
> Version 3 is going to be released soon and one have to solve in no
> time the problem of delivering the STIX fonts. I am suggesting a
> solution, which is simple and quick. Opera is moving also in this
> direction, but it is a way behind, which gives a lot of time to find a
> more complicated and general solution.
> Cheers, Samy
> 
> 
> On May 26, 5:52 pm, "Paul Topping" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Yes, I understand what you propose. However, this may 
> create yet another font mess. It has long (~10 years) that 
> the STIX fonts will become the math fonts that all will use. 
> I think it would be far better for the FF/Mozilla community 
> to write a proper font installer (it can't be that hard, we 
> did it) and place pressure on the OS makers to clean house 
> with respect to the difficulty of doing so. Perhaps they can 
> even help with the project.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [email protected]
> > > 
> [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > > Behalf Of [email protected]
> > > Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 5:16 AM
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: Re: STIX fonts for clients
> >
> > > On May 24, 7:09 pm, "Paul Topping" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > Although we don't have any side in this argument, I 
> feel the need to
> > > > correct a misconception. While our MathPlayer plugin 
> for Internet
> > > > Explorer does install its own fonts, it installs them 
> into Windows
> > > > rather than keeping them private. In other words, its installer
> > > includes
> > > > a font installer. The same fonts are also installed 
> with our MathType
> > > > product on both Mac and Windows and are installed into 
> the system and
> > > > are available to all applications running on the machine.
> >
> > > > I can say from experience that installing fonts on both Mac and
> > > Windows
> > > > is not trivial. There are a number of issues on both 
> platforms. I
> > > can't
> > > > say anything about Linux, etc. except to say that I've 
> heard it is
> > > > difficult there also. The OS vendors do not make it 
> easy. They seem to
> > > > brush a number of issues under the rug:
> >
> > > > - They allow fonts to be installed in multiple 
> directories but leave
> > > it
> > > > to developers to figure out what that means. If fonts 
> with the same
> > > > names are in more than one, which takes precedence? If 
> your installer
> > > > wants to delete old versions of a font and replace it 
> with a new one,
> > > > how does it find all the versions?
> >
> > > > - There is not much attention to versions in fonts. As with any
> > > > software, fonts are improved as time goes by. The various fonts
> > > > installers do contains versions but some contain more 
> than one, so
> > > which
> > > > takes precedence. The answer is usually none of them. Installers
> > > > routinely ignore versions. OS documentation does not 
> make it clear
> > > what
> > > > is supposed to happen.
> >
> > > > Just thought you might want to know.
> >
> > > > Paul Topping
> > > > Design Science, Inc.www.dessci.com
> >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: [email protected]
> >
> > > > [mailto:dev-tech-mathml-
> >
> > > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected]
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 4:33 AM
> > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > Subject: STIX fonts for clients
> >
> > > > > With the release of Mozilla's Firefox3-Candidate1, 
> the release of
> > > the
> > > > > stable version is expected soon. I belong to the 
> academic community
> > > > > that seeks the use of the native Firefox MathML 
> support. There is a
> > > > > long debate between people with the same interest as 
> mine and the
> > > > > developers of the Firefox browser, about delivering 
> or not the STIX
> > > > > fonts to clients using MathML as one package together with the
> > > > > browser's download. References for this debate can be 
> found in:
> > > > > 1. The bug report 295193 (
> > > > >https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=295193
> > > > > ).
> > > > > 2. The bug report 415223 (
> > > > >https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=415223
> > > > > ).
> > > > > 3. In the present list (
> >
> > 
> >http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.tech.mathml/browse
> _thread/thr
> >
> > > > > ead/27000c43ddc95c12
> > > > > ).
> > > > > My argument is that there is a simple solution, which 
> can satisfy
> > > both
> > > > > sides, and bring benefit to the spread of MathML.
> >
> > > > > I am trying to summarize the view for delivering the 
> STIX fonts
> > > > > together with the browser's download:
> >
> > > > > The academic clients are not developers. They need 
> the computer as a
> > > > > mean of helping them to meet the challenges of research and
> > > teaching.
> > > > > They need something simple that works, without following
> > > instructions
> > > > > that they don't understand, no matter how clear they 
> are. A simple
> > > > > example is the use of MathML by Firefox2. The 
> Window's installer of
> > > > > the fonts for MathML was straight-forward even for most of the
> > > > > academic clients. For Mac the instructions needed the 
> help of a
> > > > > computer expert, and even he was warned about 
> avoiding a bug that
> > > was
> > > > > explained elsewhere. For Linux it was catastrophic, 
> even an expert
> > > > > could not always help. On top a person with the root 
> password should
> > > > > also be called.  If Windows is the dominant platform, 
> is it worth
> > > > > bothering with the others?
> >
> > > > > What was the result? Only Window's clients (and they 
> are not too
> > > many
> > > > > in the academic community) could benefit. Mac and 
> Linux clients had
> > > to
> > > > > give up. On the other hand the main purpose of MathML 
> is to be used
> > > > > for mathematical expressions, and not too many people 
> are using
> > > them,
> > > > > with the exception of some academic staff.
> >
> > > > > Now let's see what are the opposing arguments of the browser's
> > > > > developers, and they make sense:
> >
> > > > > If the browser delivers also the necessary fonts, the 
> downloading
> > > time
> > > > > of the browser will increase substantially, 
> discouraging that way
> > > > > people of using the Firefox browser. This argument is 
> probably the
> > > > > most easy to overcome, by presenting to the users the 
> choice of
> > > adding
> > > > > the fonts during the downloading of the browser. 
> Furthermore the
> > > space
> > > > > of all the STIX fonts (not zipped) take is less than 
> 1.2 MB , which
> > > is
> > > > > less than 16% of the space needed for downloading the 
> browser today
> > > > > (7.5 MB). So far some of the browser's developers accept this
> > > > > solution.
> >
> > > > > The next argument is much heavier, but in my opinion 
> there is a
> > > work-
> > > > > around. The argument says that downloading the fonts 
> is not enough,
> > > > > one have to install them. The installation procedure 
> differs from
> > > > > platform to platform and it is a very heavy task to 
> be done by a
> > > > > browser. I agree, but why install the fonts in the 
> system? Just put
> > > > > them somewhere in a directory of the browser's 
> software. They don't
> > > > > have to be installed in the system. The browser 
> should take care to
> > > > > look for these fonts in the appropriate directory, 
> when a <math ..>
> > > > > element is encountered, instead of looking among the 
> installed fonts
> > > > > in the system (as for now). If a developer wants to 
> use the STIX
> > > fonts
> > > > > for another than math purpose, he has to install them 
> in the system
> > > > > (in addition to the same - existing in the browser).
> >
> > > > > As an example of this work-around, the MathPlayer 
> plug-in of Design
> > > > > Science for Internet Explorer uses math fonts, which 
> are included in
> > > > > the plug-in itself. It does not require installing the fonts.
> >
> > > > > Hope that the just proposed solution can be easily 
> implemented, and
> > > > > we'll witness soon Firefox3 free of installing 
> separately the STIX
> > > > > fonts.
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > dev-tech-mathml mailing list
> > > > > [email protected]
> > > > >https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-tech-mathml
> >
> > > Thanks Paul Toppings for the valuable information. Your experience
> > > indeed backs up the claim of the Firefox browser developers of the
> > > difficulty to arrange installers for different platforms.
> >
> > > My proposition just to put the STIX fonts in a directory 
> of Firefox to
> > > be used by the browser for MathML purpose only does not cause any
> > > problem for precedence. That way the OS does not know of their
> > > existence.
> >
> > > If a developer wants to use the same fonts for a 
> different purpose,
> > > he'll have just to install them in the system. An 
> additional  1MB on a
> > > hard disk of 100GB is negligible. It will be no 
> interference between
> > > the fonts in Firefox and the system, and no problem of 
> precedence will
> > > arise.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > dev-tech-mathml mailing list
> > > [email protected]
> > >https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-tech-mathml
> 
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