Re: Censorship is becoming ridiculous

On 2021-01-13 14:56, Ken Springer wrote:
> On 1/13/21 12:10 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>> On 01/13/2021 06:54 AM, Wolf K wrote:
>>> On 2021-01-13 01:34, The Real Bev wrote:
>>>> On 01/12/2021 09:24 AM, Rinaldi wrote:
>>>>> On 1/12/21 10:54 AM, Ken Springer wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/12/21 7:33 AM, Hartdonor wrote:
>>>>>>> I believe in Liberty. Libertarianism and classical liberalism are
>>>>>>> pretty
>>>>>>> cool things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Libertarianism sounds good on paper, but it can lead to situations 
>>>>>> such
>>>>>> as described in the following famous quioe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak 
>>>>>>> out—Because I
>>>>>>> was not a socialist.
>>>>>>> Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak
>>>>>>> out—Because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews,
>>>>>>> and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for
>>>>>>> me—and there was no one left to speak for me
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sometimes you have to be your Brother's Keeper, both  as 
>>>>>> individuals and
>>>>>> as a group.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> liberalism | ˈlib(ə)rəˌlizəm |
>>>>>> noun
>>>>>> the holding of liberal views: one of the basic tenets of 
>>>>>> liberalism is
>>>>>> tolerance | the shift from liberalism to radicalism.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> New Oxford American Dictionary
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unfortunately, today's liberalism seems to be moving away from
>>>>>> tolerance.
>>>>
>>>> The good kind is now called "classical liberalism".
>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps the tolerance level has been reached or exceeded?
>>>>
>>>> I think of it as "a liberal application of government power".
>>
>> 1.  I can't have a fence higher than 4 feet in front of my house.
>> Moreover, some percentage of it has to be see-through.

That's so's the police can't bge mabushed when you call them. Makes snse 
tyo me.

>> 2.  Forcing a company to jump through hoops defending the EEO suit
>> brought by an employee claiming discrimination instead of incompetence
>> and refusal to work the hours the job required.

If an employer wants to fire someone for incompetence, etc, they better 
have a paper trail to prove their point. Me, I'd be majorly pissed off 
if my boss could fire me on a whim. I don't think my boss has more 
rights than me, you see. And if that means that some people game the 
system, well, that's how it works. Any system can be gamed (see not 
about the Constitution below).

>> 3.  Building the useless and outrageously expensive California "bullet
>> train" with tax money.

Useless to whom?

Besides (and this not a tangential comment), private business is too 
risk-averse to invest its money in the visionary projects that change 
our lives for the better. No private company financed the space program. 
No private company financed the internet. Now that both have become 
money-makers, private business is willing to take the risk, well after 
the "unnecessary and outrageously expensive" groundwork has been paid 
for with tax dollars. (BTW, way back when, I wrote a major history paper 
on the development the railroads in North America. Often touted as a 
triumph of private investment, North America railroads were built with 
massive government subsidies. In general, governments have subsidised 
transportation as far back as we have history.)

>> 4.  Disallowing the use of unused but previously-affixed postage stamps
>> -- you know, cutting off the unused stamps on the business-reply
>> envelope and gluing them to mail YOU want to send.  This is forbidden.

Soak them off. That's what I do.

If you mean the pre-printed stuff (box with numbers, bar codes, etc), 
those aren't stamps. The envelopes are not "pre-paid". The business is 
charged postage only and if and when the envelope/card goes through the 
mail (done automagically by the franking machines that cancel stuck-on 
stamps).

>> 5.  The fact that people (mostly women) who braid hair for a living need
>> to be licensed by the State.  Lots more license requirements like that.

Anyone who touches my body for any reason, even one I agree to, better 
be competent. I presume that a licence means they've passed a test, and 
so certifies at least minimal competence.

BTW, why should lawyers be licensed? Or doctors? Or teachers? Or cab 
drivers (I won't ever use Uber, precisely because Uber drivers don't 
have to prove they're competent, unlike cab drivers).

> Welcome to the liberal point of view.

Nah, just self-protective pragmatics. If you want take risks I don't 
want to take, that's your privilege. Just don't sue anybody if you lose.

> Patrick Henry said "The Constitution is not a document to restrain the 
> people. It is an instrument for the people to restrain the government."

That's an aspirational claim, expressing a sentiment I share. But I'm a 
little more aware of practical politics than Patrick Henry was. And 
maybe more cynical.

A Constitution is only as strong as the people who implement it. More 
importantly, the written words aren't the whole thing. It's how it's 
understood that matters. Hence the rules and traditions. A politician 
determined to get his own way can often find a way to manipulate the 
rules without violating the letter of the law.

> That's not what you are seeing in the US these days.
> 
>>> Frankly, I have no idea any more what you USians mean by "liberal" and
>>> "liberalism." And please don't quote or refer to 18th century texts.
>>> Language changes. What matters is not how someone defined their
>>> concept(s) back then (however instructive their writings may be), but
>>> how people use words now. And just as importantly, how they believe
>>> those words apply to their and other people's decisions and actions.
>>>
>>> And apart from "Something I don't like" or "Something I Like", I see no
>>> common meaning(s) in the way the terms are used.
>>>
>>> So, kindly tell me what you mean.
>>>
>>> With actual, concrete examples of.
>>
>> The more I think of that I personally know about, the more pissed-off I
>> get :-(
>>
>>
> 
> 

Sartre said "Hell is other people." Substitute "government" for "hell", 
and you see why democratic governance will always piss you off. In my 
gloomier moments, I think being pissed off is the natural state of the 
citizen of a democracy. The government will always do things that annoy 
you, because someone else wants them done.

But the alternatives, as Churchill once famously said, are worse.

The desire for political perfection is a yearning for a final solution, 
one that will fix all political, social, and economic problems once and 
for all. You know who thought he knew what the Final Solution was. My 
parents' generation bled and died to defeat him.

Best,


-- 
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.com
“When I am playing with my cat, how do I know she is not playing with 
me? (Montaigne)
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