Re: Removing Firefox Version Number

On Aug 14, 11:02 pm, Asa Dotzler <[email protected]> wrote:
> DaveG wrote:
> > <tangential rant>
> > First off, let me state here that either a group discussion is the
> > prerequisite to a bug or if not, then Bugzilla is actually where this
> > discussion belongs, regardless of what some people want on occasion.
> > No, Bugzilla is not generally a discussion forum, but it /is/ quite
> > often the place for discussing how and what is implemented, so long as
> > we don't get into a loop of repeating ourselves. Actual pros and cons
> > and alternative solutions are debated in Bugzilla all the time and it
> > is rare that I can stand to come over to the groups. I would've
> > thought the spam alone would make usenet dead by now, let alone the
> > fact that it's... usenet. I stopped using this place a decade ago. It
> > needs to die with fire.
> > </tangential rant>
>
> Rant not withstanding, thanks for bringing this to the newsgroup. This
> is where I've asked for feedback and as the Product owner of this
> feature and reporter of the bug, I think I'm completely within reason to
> request that discussion happen here and not in the bug. I appreciate
> your willingness to accommodate my request.
>
> > On Aug 14, 4:23 pm, Asa Dotzler<[email protected]>  wrote:
> >> It's always been that way is not a new argument against change.
>
> > Certainly, but "it's always been this way, and thus everyone knows how
> > to use this" is, especially if we're explicitly talking about user
> > experience and interaction here.
>
> This assumes "everyone" needs to know how to find the version number
> when what we're doing here is intentionally killing the version number.
>
> > The about dialog may be part of the application, but it's really more
> > of an OS-level action. It's one of the few things that has been more
> > or less standard on multiple OSes for decades. I have no clue what
> > version of KDE I have installed right now, but I do know it's in help-
> >> about for every KDE application as is each application's version. The
> > same concept is applied virtually everywhere.
>
> And we're breaking from that convention. We're moving to a more Web-like
> convention where it's simply not important what version you're using as
> long as it's the latest version. We're also already in a new system
> where there is no supported version except the latest versoin so the
> overwhelming majority of users will be on that latest version and for
> them, the most important thing isn't the number of the release. The most
> important thing is confidence that they're on the latest release. That's
> what the About dialog will give them.
>
> >> We also thought of that. And the after thinking about it, we concluded
> >> that most people don't need to know what version number they're using
> >> and what they actually want to know is whether or not they're running
> >> the latest version. For the few people who care whether it's version 7
> >> or version 2011-08-16 or version 1.8.0.0.1.77, they can get this
> >> information from about:troubleshooting which is available in the Firefox
> >> Help menu.
>
> > So... you basically want to use about:troubleshooting as a second
> > about window? I'll restate myself from bug 678775 here: The about
> > dialog is essentially a box designed for the sole purpose of housing
> > the application developer and version.
>
> No, we don't want about:troubleshooting as a second about window. The
> about:troubleshooting page is for troubleshooting. The About dialog is
> for finding out about Firefox, including whether or not you're on the
> latest version.
>
> > Also, to restate my suggested compromise:
> > If there's an actual known repeatable problem this would fix, I think
> > some kind of compromise where there were two views in the about
> > dialog: a hyper-user-friendly one with things hidden and a link to
> > show the rest of the (and maybe more) info including the version and
> > date of said version. (i.e. similar to how the credits were done once
> > upon a time)
>
> I don't believe, and the the UX lead for Firefox doesn't believe, that
> this information belongs in the About dialog. You think it does and
> you've cited "convention" as your argument. I've explained that we're
> intentionally breaking from convention here because we're changing how
> we make the software.
>
> Our new model is much more akin to how Web software works where you are
> always on the latest release and you don't need to know what release
> number that is. As an end user, the number tells you nothing of value
> and so we're removing it.
>
> If you are in a troubleshooting situation, perhaps because you're
> talking with a website that doesn't work in Firefox or you're trying to
> get Firefox support from our Mozilla Support Forums , then you can go to
> Help -> Troubleshooting and from there get all of the information about
> Firefox that could help you troubleshoot your Firefox problem, including
> the version number.
>
> >>> I see little to no benefit by removing it (other that "let's remove
> >>> something else from the UI".
> >> That is not the benefit that the UX and Product lead are after here and
> >> characterizing our intents like that is somewhat insulting. I expect
> >> that kind of nonsense from random slashdotters and trolls, but not from
> >> regular members of our community. I don't assume your work on the
> >> Mozilla project is mindless or un-serious. Please don't make those
> >> assumptions of those around you.
>
> > Let me see if I can put this as politely as possible: The "let's
> > remove something else from the UI" route is often a perfectly valid
> > way to improve things.
>
> I disagree with that. That's never a valid way to improve things without
> considering carefully the "something" you're removing from the UI.
>
> > Firefox had until recently a lot of UI that needed removing, and still
> > has some. This should not be taken as an offense and your response is
> > more confrontational than is needed here. I think we all would rather
> > have a debate than an argument.
>
> When someone assumes or says outright that Mozilla UX and Product folks
> are removing things just to be removing things, I'm going to shout
> loudly. I stand by that. It's an argument, along with "You're just doing
> it because <other browser> did it" and "It's just change for the sake of
> change" that I'm not going to accept in these discussions and when it
> comes up I'm going to call it out and call for it to stop. I'm sick of
> it and I'm not going to accept those kinds of insults as arguments.
>
> >> We have a goal to make version numbers irrelevant to our consumer
> >> audience. We also have a need to let users know if they are indeed using
> >> the latest and greatest version of Firefox. This feature re-design
> >> accomplishes both of those goals.
>
> > Let me restate that these goals and showing expected information here
> > are not mutually exclusive concepts. Just have a little text link for
> > "show technical information about this version" (or some more concise
> > wording) which transitions from your ideal hyper-simple dialog to show
> > the version, its date, and maybe a link to about:buildconfig. This
> > gives the best of both worlds.
>
> I don't think, and I believe the Firefox UX lead agrees with me, that
> users need that information in the About dialog. That's why we're
> removing it. The version number is only relevant to users for
> troubleshooting and I question it's relevance even there given that
> we're shooting for having all of our users on the latest release.
>
> > Additionally, version numbers matter whether anyone likes it or not,
> > at least until Firefox forces updates
>
> Firefox updates are already all required. Firefox 5 was a required
> update for Firefox 4 and the overwhelming majority of Firefox 4 ussers
> are migrated to 5. Firefox 6, which will be available in several days,
> is a required update for Firefox 5 users.
>
> > (with an override only discoverable by power users and sys admins) such
> > that you don't have an ungodly number of users not taking major updates
> > for quite some time, if ever.
>
> As I said above, Firefox 6 is an automatic and required update for
> Firefox 5. Firefox 5 was a required update for Firefox 4. We're there
> today. By the time we get to Firefox 9 or 10, when this new About dialog
> feature change lands, we'll have an even better update experience so
> we'll lose even fewer people in the transition and we'll transition them
> even faster.
>
> It's off-topic but I do want to note that there aren't an ungodly number
> of users on Firefox 4 because Firefox 5 was an automatic update and the
> overwhelming majority were updated in just a couple of weeks. That
> update transition will be even faster with Firefox 5 to 6 and faster
> still with 6 to 7 and 7 to 8.
>
> > We're currently on a path towards a highly fragmented user-base and
> > fixing that should be higher on the priority list. Yes, I know that
> > doesn't prevent improvements to the about dialog, but it does mean that
> > the version is not (yet) a completely trivial thing tobe buried.
>
> We're not on a path to a highly fragmented user-base. You can't just
> assert facts without evidence. The rapid release transitions are working
> quite well and will improve over time. A year from now we'll be far
> *less* fragmented than we've ever been since Firefox launched.
>
> - A
I disagree that it is more web standard that it doesn't matter what
version you use. Web apps (eg. Office Live, Google Apps etc) try to
keep backwards capability between versions. At the very least you can
argue that the customer opted for "forced updates" since they are
using software as a service and can't reasonably expect the provider
to keep a version up for everyone that decides to forgo an upgrade for
each of potentially hundreds of versions in a rapid release cycle kind
of thing.

Firefox though is installed software. If it is on my computer and has
say a security vulnerability I need to be able to check to see if I
have that version of the program running or not. I also need to be
able to test my networks software against that version of FF. Having
an easy/as expected way for users to figure out if they have the right
software installed is mission critical. Telling users that they should
just care about being on the latest version is absolute crap.
Sometimes apps downgrade. They break your addons, don't perform as
well, get rid of a piece of UI or a keyboard shortcut that you like,
break a critical corporate webpage etc. You shouldn't have to upgrade
to know what "version" you are on (latest). Think about corporate
users, random system comes into the building, what version is it
running, "mm I don't know", go to troubleshooting etc etc. Why the
heck should something that ultimately needs to be there be hidden in
some never never land instead of the place were every major OS/
windowing system provider says it should be? The day the version
number goes away from the About box is the day my network goes back to
IE.