Re: Removing Firefox Version Number

Hi, I'm a Firefox user, I thought you might want to know my opinion.

The concept of version, or release if you prefer, is something that 
exists and that cannot disappear simply by deciding it. Even the 
suggested new wording implies that there are versions. If the new about 
dialog says "you're not running the latest release" (or similar), then 
the immediate and natural reaction (or at least the one that I'd have) 
is : ok, then what is my release, what is the latest release, and what 
are the changes ?

You're saying that you want to move to a model closer to a website, but 
a program that I install on my computer is completely different. I don't 
know the version of GMail because I don't have control over it. Google 
makes changes as it pleases, doesn't document them, and I don't have my 
word. Are you saying that users shouldn't have their word on the release 
of FF they have installed on their own machine ? Are you implying that 
undocumented updates should be imposed upon the user ? As an user I 
believe that this is completely unacceptable and my reaction will be to 
not update if possible or switch to a browser that does not impose such 
behaviour. Actually I went away from Chrome for this very reason.

It's also bothering that you never brought a single argument in favor of 
the change. Just to be clear, "I don't believe", "the UX lead for 
Firefox doesn't believe" and "we don't believe" are not arguments.

v.

On 14/08/2011 22:23, Asa Dotzler wrote:
> Tyler Downer wrote:
>> In Bug 678775 (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678775),
>> Asa has suggested that we remove the version number from the Firefox
>> About window, stating that the about:support page is all the
>> information anybody will need.
>
> Actually, the Firefox usability lead, Alex Limi suggested it. As the
> Firefox Product lead, I agreed and so I created a feature page for
> tracking this effort and I filed a bug for the implementation when we're
> ready to start that.
>
>> First off, the versions number has always been shown in the Help>About
>> window for almost every Windows program for the past 16+ years
>
> It's always been that way is not a new argument against change. This was
> considered when we decided to make this change.
>
>> By removing the version number from the About window (which was already
>> simplified to showing just the version number, and not build ID in
>> Firefox 4, eg. Firefox 4.0.1), then we open up a window of confusion
>> with those people who want to check just what version they are
>> running.
>
> We also thought of that. And the after thinking about it, we concluded
> that most people don't need to know what version number they're using
> and what they actually want to know is whether or not they're running
> the latest version. For the few people who care whether it's version 7
> or version 2011-08-16 or version 1.8.0.0.1.77, they can get this
> information from about:troubleshooting which is available in the Firefox
> Help menu.
>
>> Asa says "When a user opens the About window for Firefox, the window
>> should say something like 'Firefox checked for updates 20 minutes ago,
>> you are running the latest release.'" But what if the computer is not
>> always connected to the Internet and the user wants to see if they
>> have the latest Firefox or if they need to connect to the internet
>
> Actually, that's not quite accurate. For the tiny minority of users who
> open the Firefox About dialog who are not connected to the internet, the
> dialog will say something like "As of N hours ago, you are running the
> latest version of Firefox" where N is the number of hours since Firefox
> was online and made the update check. If they're not connected to the
> internet, and they happen to know what the latest version of Firefox is
> (how did they learn that again?) then they can open
> about:troubleshooting and compare versions themselves. This is a rare
> case that should not impact the decision on this feature change.
>
>> download it? Or if they have had issues with their internet
>> connection? I had an Apache server set up on a computer once that i
>> did not have connected to the internet so I didn't have to worry about
>> security, but I did keep an up to date version of Firefox on the
>> computer because I used it for web development.
>
> Users with Apache servers set up on their machines are quite capable of
> using about:troubleshooting to figure out which version of Firefox
> they're using.
>
>> And using the about:pages isn't a good solution. 75% of people don't
>> even know the about:pages exist (based on my triage experience) and
>> users likely are not going to find them on their own.
>
> about:troubleshooting is available via the Help menu. Users need not
> know about the existence of about: pages.
>
>> Now, while I understand that the UX team wants to make version numbers
>> less important (that is something I myself want to see happen)
>> removing them from the About window is not the answer.
>
> It is not *the* answer. It is part of an answer which includes removing
> it from other touchpoints in Firefox and the Firefox websites.
>
>> Even Chrome, which has a rapid release cycle and a VERY good updating
>> process, shows the Version in the about window.
>
> Chrome does foo is a reasonable data point to offer. We can certainly
> look at how certain Chrome features behave or are received by users and
> use that data to help inform our decisions on Firefox features.
>
> But this isn't new data. The UX and Product leads were fully aware of
> what Chrome does here and that didn't cause us to decide differently.
>
>> What needs to be done is, remove the version from the download page.
>> Just say "Download Firefox" and leave it at that.
>
> Thank you for the prescription. We are removing the version from the
> download page. There's a bug on file and it is scheduled as part of the
> next Website refresh. But no, we are not going to just "leave it at that."
>
>> Make Firefox automagically update in the background (with an easy to
>> find preference to turn that off), and get rid of the first run pages
>> (which now that we are using rapid release and each new version has
>> like 1 small feature, don't serve any purpose anyway).
>
> Firefox already automagically does some of its update in the background.
> We have feature pages and bugs describing the means by which we are
> going to make this even more magical and less distracting.
>
> We also have a feature page describing the intent to remove the What's
> New tab that loads with each new release. That one is contentions but
> it's on my list of features that will all combine to give us much more
> "silent" updates.
>
>> The About window needs to continue showing the version number, and it
>> already checks for updates as soon as it is opened.
>
> So far, I think I can summarize your argument for why Firefox "needs to
> continue showing the version number" as 1) Versions have always been
> shown in the About dialog, and 2) Some offline users will get a outdated
> message about when they were last updated, and 3) users cannot find the
> menu for Help -> Troubleshooting, and 4) Chrome does it.
>
> I think I've responded to each of those. Have I missed one of your
> arguments or mis-characterized any of them?
>
>> I see little to no benefit by removing it (other that "let's remove
>> something else from the UI".
>
> That is not the benefit that the UX and Product lead are after here and
> characterizing our intents like that is somewhat insulting. I expect
> that kind of nonsense from random slashdotters and trolls, but not from
> regular members of our community. I don't assume your work on the
> Mozilla project is mindless or un-serious. Please don't make those
> assumptions of those around you.
>
> We have a goal to make version numbers irrelevant to our consumer
> audience. We also have a need to let users know if they are indeed using
> the latest and greatest version of Firefox. This feature re-design
> accomplishes both of those goals.
>
> - A