Re: Why should ordinary user have to tweak the program after updating?

"Ron Hunter" <[email protected]> wrote in message 
news:[email protected]...
> On 11/15/2011 5:01 PM, Desiree wrote:
>> "Greywolf"<[email protected]>  wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>  From mozilla.support.thunderbird:
>>>
>>> On 14/11/2011 6:05 PM, Ron Hunter wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>>>>>> Third, don't try to keep a FF session active for a month, or even a
>>>> week.  This kind of software isn't designed for long-term continuous
>>>> use.
>>>>>>> [...]
>>> Ron, I know you mean well, and it's all excellent advice.
>>>
>>> However, the days of leaving it up to the user are long past. The 
>>> average
>>> naive user, who just wants to surf ans facebook and such isn't going to 
>>> do
>>> any of this stuff. And IMO (s)he shouldn't have to. Releasing updates 
>>> that
>>> require precautionary maintenance in order to work as they should is
>>> something that's OK for hobbyists, but not for ordinary users.
>>>
>>> Cross-posted to mozilla.dev.usability, where I'm probably being ignored.
>>> ;-(.
>>>
>>> HTH
>>> Wolf K.
>>
>> Why would a browser NOT be designed to have a session active for a month? 
>> I
>> know Fx is not but Opera is so why not Fx? Why would you think a user 
>> should
>> be delighted to have to continuously open and close Fx? It takes time to
>> reopen the last session when that session has 50-100 tabs. Fx should be
>> stable enough, without excessive RAM usage and proper release of RAM when
>> minimized to the task bar for long periods, to not need to be closed and
>> reopened more than once a month.  With Opera, you never shut down because
>> that shuts down Unite and then others cannot fetch files off your file
>> server, etc.  Besides who wants to have to restart Fx frequently? That is 
>> an
>> irritant that should not be a part of any browser. Opera properly 
>> releases
>> RAM on minimization. I read yesterday that Memshrink team says part of 
>> the
>> RAM problem with Fx is memory leakage from extensions but if the RAM 
>> problem
>> can be solved then Fx should be stable enough to not require shutdown 
>> except
>> when one is forced to reboot their computer which for desktop users might 
>> be
>> once or twice a month (Microsoft Tuesdays).
>>
>>
> I totally disagree with the idea that an application should be left 
> running when not in use.  Loading FF on my system takes only a couple of 
> seconds, and assures that I get a minimal system load each time I restart. 
> Most of the problems with FF RAM usage growing when minimized relate to 
> extensions, or so I am told.  As for Opera, that is quite off topic, and 
> if, as you say, it sets up a file server for sharing, would violate my ISP 
> terms of service.  I reboot mostly when I do MS updates, but some programs 
> still require a reboot when installing, or uninstalling, so keeping FF up 
> all the time isn't likely if you do a lot of installing, and uninstalling. 
> As for the time to load 50-100 tabs, that is no longer an issue as they 
> won't load until clicked on. Frankly, the idea of keeping 50-100 tabs open 
> is just as unreasonable as keeping a FF session up for a month.  According 
> to Testpilot runs, only 3% of users ever use more than 10 tabs.  I 
> normally use no more than 4 or 5, and that is pretty rare.
> Note that if your program releases RAM when minimized, then the restart of 
> it will take almost as long as if it had been terminated, and will greatly 
> increase the memory fragmentation, and overhead for memory management.

First of all, I suggest you try Opera. It is an excellent browser but not 
perfect as none of the browsers are that.  The reason I came back to Fx was 
after having only Fx 1.5 until Fx4 (and using Opera mostly for the past two 
years) was because Piro finally introduced TBE3 for Fx4. Tabbed Browser 
Extensions (which was the first extension written and was written for 
Mozilla Suite back about 2000 and then ported to Firebird later), was the 
reason I started using Mozilla Suite around 2001 and fell in love with 
tabbed browsing. I continued to love this extension through Fx 1.5. Then it 
would not work on Fx 2 without considerable hacking and then worked sort of. 
It worked better on Fx 3 (with no hacking needed) but not well. Only with Fx 
4 is Piro back with the greatest of all extensions working fantastically 
well.  It is now TBE3 and broken into several smaller extensions instead of 
just one large one.
Opera Unite would not violate your ISP's TOS because the file server, and 
all the other servers, are hosted on Opera servers. But Opera isn't the 
subject here so I won't say anymore.

You actually believe that I should start Fx every few minutes? I use the 
computer about 8-10 hours a day but in not one session. I go cook a meal, 
vacuum the house, go running, etc. inbetween using Fx. So, I should shut it 
down repeatedly every day? That's makes no sense. I never shut down my 
computer. It runs 24/7/365 and I see no reason why my browser should be 
constantly shut down. I don't shut down Word, or Ping Plotter Pro, or 
WinAmp, or Outlook Express, etc just because I am not sitting at the 
computer for awhile.

The entire point of tabbed browsing is to be able to have 50 or more tabs 
open. If you only have 3-5 tabs open just use windows. You don't need tabs 
if that is how you use a browser. All my browsers usualy have 50-100 tabs 
open. Opera has no memory problems because of this. Iron does but that is 
because of the stupid sandboxing of each tab. Even on SeaMonkey (which I 
would use all the time if Piro would port TBE3 to it so I could have the 
excellent mail client built into it) I have 50-100 tabs open.  TBE has tree 
style tabs vertically on the left and can group them in various ways, etc. 
After using TreeStyle tabs I had an awful time using other browsers with 
tabs horizontally across the top and not grouped (until recently on Opera). 
I know many users who stayed with Fx 1.5 for TBE and tree style tabs until 
Fx4. The extension is extremely addictive.

I had read that Fx8 insanely refuses to load all tabs on start! I cannot 
fathom having to wait for it load later when you click on it. I would never 
allow such a feature. Of course,  TBE overrides dumb stuff like that. All 
tabs should fully load with their thumbnails (how else do you know where 
each tab is if it doesn't load on start then there will be no thumbnail so 
you can locate it in the tree) on start. If I start a saved session within 
the current session, why in the world would I not want all tabs to load? 
That is why I would start a saved session within the current session.  If I 
did not want all tabs to load when I start Fx, and am asked by Session 
Manager what session to start, and I click on "previous", why would I click 
on previous? I always click to load the previous session and I want the tabs 
available all the time. I don't care how long it takes to start Fx because I 
rarely close Fx! I have a desktop not a laptop that I have to lug around. I 
have a desktop by choice so that I can keep it and my browser running 24/7 
with rare reboots, no shutdowns of the computer, and rare shutdowns of the 
browsers. (I always have at least two browsers running).

Fx has horrible bookmarking and that, along with history, has never been 
substantially improved in all the years I have used Mozilla browsers. (In 
fact it has gone backwards because as of Fx4 you can no longer control how 
much history it saves) and bookmarks are still in one, long, very unwieldly, 
very slow to scroll column so you are forced to get an old buggy extension 
to give your bookmarks columns! Opera does that automatically. That is one 
big reason I have so many tabs open all the time. Opera, on the other hand, 
handles booksmarks and history superbly but I can't use TBE3 with it. So, I 
remain with Fx as the default browser because of TBE3 and because it saves 
text in text boxes if it is closed or crashes and Opera does not.  But I am 
not upgrading 4.01 probably for at least for a year. There should be no need 
to upgrade a well planned, well developed browser more than once a year 
except it should have security patches during that year but not upgrades to 
full new versions where extensions have to be checked, etc.

It is not necessarily true that if a program properly releases much, but not 
all, of its RAM when minimized for a long period (like hours or overnight) 
will be slow to start up. Opera is not slow to start up and if it was using 
250,000k RAM and while minimized down to 60,000k for instance it starts back 
up fast. Fx is currently using 560,000k and I only have 2GB RAM and the 
nVidia mobo doesn't allow adding more.  Fx will not release any on minimize. 
The Fx Memshrink team's blog says the RAM problem is likely mostly from 
extensions. So, I welcome Mozilla looking in this, listing the extensions 
that leak the most (maybe TBE is a bad leaker...I have no idea), and trying 
to get the authors to fix the leaks.

Fx, (actually starting with Phoenix) in the beginning, was the geeks 
browser. It has lost its way over the years. Those of us who worked hard to 
help build it by testing all those buggy, half finished builds before Fx1.0 
ended up being rewarded with the decision to abandon us. We are not 
"typical" users who use 3 or 4 tabs.

Lastly, I run virtual machines both on VMWare Workstation 7, Virtualbox and 
Microsoft Virtual PC. It takes time and hassle to shut down virtual machines 
so I can reboot the host so, of course, I will avoid rebooting until I see 
an obvious need which on my aging Dell gaming machine is about once every 3 
to 4 weeks (unless reboot is required for installing something but I don't 
do much installation these days except maybe on the virtual machines).

We all use computers differently and browser makers as well OS makers need 
to be aware of this an try to accomodate to the needs of different users. Fx 
though has thrown its fate into the hands of the group of users who are 
ignorant of computers and have no interest in learning about computers. 
Those users are fickle and will not see any reason to be loyal to Mozilla.
>