Re: NHW Project development

--===============7654577681224495762==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005ec51305d2310c48"

--0000000000005ec51305d2310c48
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Wow very impressive work!

Yes that's a lot of work, that's why I am looking for sponsoring on the
Internet (as the industry is not interested) to work full-time on NHW, like
for example adapt to any image size.NHW is for now a 512x512
proof-of-concept, but I find that it is a convincing prototype compared to
AV1/VVC, so maybe some people could be interested in seeing NHW developed a
little more?

Cheers,
Raphael

Le jeu. 2 d=C3=A9c. 2021 =C3=A0 22:53, Andrey Filippov <[email protected]> =
a =C3=A9crit :

> Raphael,
>
> Some 15 years ago I implemented limited functionality Theora in our
> cameras FPGA (it took me 6 month of hard labor), and then gave up - it is=
 a
> very crowded space and it is difficult to compete with more advanced
> codecs. And for our other work we anyway need almost raw image data, so w=
e
> are using JPEG-based JP4 format (https://community.elphel.com/jp4) that
> we originally developed for Google Books to compress raw Bayer mosaic
> images. Last few years we work with the thermal images that need 16 bit, =
so
> far uncompressed TIFF files. We need lossless 2:1 compression (current
> recording bandwidth is about half of the image data rate (4 channels of
> 640x512x60fps, 16 bits), but it will be something simple (prediction by 4
> neighbors), and no video. Nature of the thermal images is different from
> that of the conventional RGB - there is no scaling with exposure and
> environmental temperature causes shift of the pixel values, not scaling.
>
> We did not post the latest results yet, the last blog is here -
> https://blog.elphel.com/2021/07/calibration-of-the-lwir16-camera-prototyp=
e/
>
> Andrey
>
>
>
> ---- On Thu, 02 Dec 2021 14:34:25 -0700 *Raphael Canut
> <[email protected] <[email protected]>>* wrote ----
>
> Hi Andrey,
>
> Thank you for your answer.Actually, NHW is very low-power so I think it
> could be geared toward any hardware.But actually I don't have hardware
> skills, so NHW is not a real hardware project for now maybe? I agree with
> you that it is extremely difficult (for me) to build a community around
> NHW, I'm certainly very bad/underskilled at it.Any help is welcome!
>
> Cheers,
> Raphael
>
> Le jeu. 2 d=C3=A9c. 2021 =C3=A0 21:13, Andrey Filippov <[email protected]=
> a =C3=A9crit :
>
> Raphael,
>
> I do not believe it is possible to build a viable community around most
> hardware projects except super-universal based on very cheap/high-volume
> products like Pi or Arduino. We see the commercial benefits of Free
> Software/Open Hardware as it adds value to the hardware as users are read=
y
> to pay extra for the Freedom.
>
> Andrey
>
> ---- On Thu, 02 Dec 2021 12:59:34 -0700 *Raphael Canut
> <[email protected] <[email protected]>>* wrote ----
>
> Hello,
>
> I know there is no community around NHW, but I would have liked to know
> what you would like to see improved in the NHW codec.I know its results a=
re
> not perfect for now compared to high-end AV1/VVC codecs for example, but
> could be ok giving its extremely fast speed.-However on high quality
> images, I notably like its good results because of its neatness.-
>
> Regarding things to improve, there is the problem of aliasing, I have
> started some quick experiments as I mainly find that aliasing appears in
> NHW along "low-contrast edges", but I have also seen some very impressive
> results of directional filters like the ones used in CDEF filter in AV1,
> because they estimate the "strong edge direction" and align all the pixel=
s
> on that "strong edge direction" which could depixelize/remove aliasing.I
> have also started to implement a banding detector (with its main analysis
> on the 128x128 wavelet DC image) in order to remove banding, and it's onl=
y
> the beginning but I have promising results.I have also started to improve
> the entropy coding scheme of the wavelet DC part, for now I have a very
> fast processing that gives another 1KB saving on that part in average, bu=
t
> I have an error on some few images, I don't think I contradict the
> compression and information theory principles, I think it is more a corne=
r
> case that I did not see for now and so that I don't handle, but it takes =
a
> lot of time... I'll also have to better handle the chroma channels and
> notably add chroma from luma technique.
>
> Some people also tell me that the priority now is to adapt NHW to any
> image size, but actually this is the boring task for me currently, and I =
am
> a little reluctant for now.
>
> All that to let you know that I really like more to work on my codec, and
> so I would like now to work full-time on it again, but there is always th=
e
> big problem of the salary at the end of the month.As the industry doesn't
> show interest in NHW, I would like to ask sponsoring for this project on
> the Internet.But some people told me that I failed to create a community
> around NHW, and with just 27 followers on GitHub and 8 followers on Twitt=
er
> (that's very weak), I can not hope more than 10dollars/per month of
> sponsoring/donation.
>
> Do you think this solution/sponsoring is possible? Or on the contrary, NH=
W
> will be just a spare time hobby, because there is nothing more to expect
> out of it?
>
> Any help/opinion is very welcome!
>
> Cheers,
> Raphael
> _______________________________________________
> theora mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/theora
>
>
>
>
>
>

--0000000000005ec51305d2310c48
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Wow very impressive work!</div><div><br></div><div>Ye=
s that&#39;s a lot of work, that&#39;s why I am looking for sponsoring on t=
he Internet (as the industry is not interested) to work full-time on NHW, l=
ike for example adapt to any image size.NHW is for now a 512x512 proof-of-c=
oncept, but I find that it is a convincing prototype compared to AV1/VVC, s=
o maybe some people could be interested in seeing NHW developed a little mo=
re?</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Raphael<br></div></div><br><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">Le=C2=A0jeu=
. 2 d=C3=A9c. 2021 =C3=A0=C2=A022:53, Andrey Filippov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>&gt; a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br></div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u><div><div style=3D=
"font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div>Raphae=
l,<br></div><div><br></div><div>Some 15 years ago I implemented limited fun=
ctionality Theora in our cameras FPGA (it took me 6 month of hard labor), a=
nd then gave up - it is a very crowded space and it is difficult to compete=
 with more advanced codecs. And for our other work we anyway need almost ra=
w image data, so we are using JPEG-based JP4 format (<a href=3D"https://com=
munity.elphel.com/jp4" target=3D"_blank">https://community.elphel.com/jp4</=
a>) that we originally developed for Google Books to compress raw Bayer mos=
aic images. Last few years we work with the thermal images that need 16 bit=
, so far uncompressed TIFF files. We need lossless 2:1 compression (current=
 recording bandwidth is about half of the image data rate (4 channels of 64=
0x512x60fps, 16 bits), but it will be something simple (prediction by 4 nei=
ghbors), and no video. Nature of the thermal images is different from that =
of the conventional RGB - there is no scaling with exposure and environment=
al temperature causes shift of the pixel values, not scaling.<br></div><div=
><br></div><div>We did not post the latest results yet, the last blog is he=
re - <a href=3D"https://blog.elphel.com/2021/07/calibration-of-the-lwir16-c=
amera-prototype/" target=3D"_blank">https://blog.elphel.com/2021/07/calibra=
tion-of-the-lwir16-camera-prototype/</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andre=
y<br></div><div><br></div><div style=3D"border-top:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);height:0px;margin-top:10px;margin-bottom:10px;line-height:0px"><br></div=
><div><br><div id=3D"gmail-m_6702303355976247619Zm-_Id_-Sgn1">---- On Thu, =
02 Dec 2021 14:34:25 -0700 <b>Raphael Canut &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nhwcodec@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>&gt;</b> wrote ----<br><=
/div><br><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi And=
rey,<br></div><div><br></div><div>Thank you for your answer.Actually, NHW i=
s very low-power so I think it could be geared toward any hardware.But actu=
ally I don&#39;t have hardware skills, so NHW is not a real hardware projec=
t for now maybe? I agree with you that it is extremely difficult (for me) t=
o build a community around NHW, I&#39;m certainly very bad/underskilled at =
it.Any help is welcome!<br></div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,<br></div><div>=
Raphael<br></div></div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Le=C2=A0jeu. 2 d=C3=A9c. 2=
021 =C3=A0=C2=A021:13, Andrey Filippov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andrey@elphel.=
com" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>&gt; a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br></d=
iv><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(=
204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u><div><div style=3D"font-family:Verdan=
a,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div>Raphael,<br></div><div><b=
r></div><div>I do not believe it is possible to build a viable community ar=
ound most hardware projects except super-universal based on very cheap/high=
-volume products like Pi or Arduino. We see the commercial benefits of Free=
 Software/Open Hardware as it adds value to the hardware as users are ready=
 to pay extra for the Freedom.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Andrey<br></div=
><div><div><br></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_6702303355976247619x_-1193805188gma=
il-m_8173071816434486294Zm-_Id_-Sgn1">---- On Thu, 02 Dec 2021 12:59:34 -07=
00 <b>Raphael Canut &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_bl=
ank">[email protected]</a>&gt;</b> wrote ----<br></div><div><br></div><blo=
ckquote style=3D"margin:0px"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello,<br></div><di=
v><br></div><div>I know there is no community around NHW, but I would have =
liked to know=20
 what you would like to see improved in the NHW codec.I know its results
  are not perfect for now compared to high-end AV1/VVC codecs for=20
example,  but could be ok giving its extremely fast speed.-However on=20
high  quality images, I notably like its good results because of its =20
neatness.-<br></div><div><br></div><div>Regarding things to improve, there =
is the problem of aliasing, I have =20
started some quick experiments as I mainly find that aliasing appears in
  NHW along &quot;low-contrast edges&quot;, but I have also seen some very =
=20
impressive results of directional filters like the ones used in CDEF =20
filter in AV1, because they estimate the &quot;strong edge direction&quot; =
and =20
align all the pixels on that &quot;strong edge direction&quot;  which could=
 =20
depixelize/remove aliasing.I have also started to implement a banding =20
detector (with its main analysis on the 128x128 wavelet DC image) in =20
order to remove banding, and it&#39;s only the beginning but I have =20
promising results.I have also started to improve the entropy coding =20
scheme of the wavelet DC part, for now I have a very fast processing =20
that gives another 1KB saving on that part in average, but I have an =20
error on some few images, I don&#39;t think I contradict the compression an=
d
  information theory principles, I think it is more a corner case that I
  did not see for now and so that I don&#39;t handle, but it takes a lot of=
=20
 time... I&#39;ll also have to better handle the chroma channels and notabl=
y
  add chroma from luma technique.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Some people =
also tell me that the priority now is to adapt NHW to any =20
image size, but actually this is the boring task for me currently, and I
  am a little reluctant for now.<br></div><div><br></div><div>All that to l=
et you know that I really like more to work on my codec, =20
and so I would like now to work full-time on it again, but there is =20
always the big problem of the salary at the end of the month.As the =20
industry doesn&#39;t show interest in NHW, I would like to ask sponsoring =
=20
for this project on the Internet.But some people told me that I failed =20
to create a community around NHW, and with just 27 followers on GitHub =20
and 8 followers on Twitter (that&#39;s very weak), I can not hope more than=
=20
 10dollars/per month of sponsoring/donation.<br></div><div><br></div><div>D=
o you think this solution/sponsoring is possible? Or on the contrary, =20
NHW will be just a spare time hobby, because there is nothing more to =20
expect out of it?<br></div><div><br></div><div>Any help/opinion is very wel=
come!<br></div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,<br></div><div>Raphael <br></div>=
</div><div>_______________________________________________<br></div><div>th=
eora mailing list <br></div><div><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=
=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a> <br></div><div><a href=3D"http://lists.xiph=
.org/mailman/listinfo/theora" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.xiph.org/mailm=
an/listinfo/theora</a> <br></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div></=
div><br></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div></=
div><br></div></blockquote></div>

--0000000000005ec51305d2310c48--

--===============7654577681224495762==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

_______________________________________________
theora mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/theora

--===============7654577681224495762==--