Re: A call for review

hi Andrew,
Am Donnerstag 22 September 2005 08.35 schrieb Andrew Jensen:

Thanks for this statements. It could be my letter, but my english is 
not sufficent enough
<>
> A few months ago I started seriously investigating the use of
> OOBase as a development tool, not for personal use but to deliver
> applications to clients. 
me too

> It has become clear that the tool as it 
> has been developed falls far short of being suitable for such
> purposes.
agree

> Now for my main points. I fail to see how the current
> implementation of Base meets any particular users needs. It seems
> to be too hobbled, by design, for serious consideration as a
> development platform. It also seems to be too lacking in ease of
> use features to make it useful for the casual user. What do I
> mean by this?

> In the case of data enty forms management ...
-Base.Forms ? Only for _very_ simple tasks (not more then Calc can 
do)...
 A _Dialog_ generator would be my approach together with tools to 
change items e.g. replace the generated text field with a listbox.

-Base.Dialog is usable

-Base.Reports is verrry poor. 
 I write the reports to Calc using macros.
 Wrote ER 47672 to guide the output to Calc
<>

> Third, script management. Given that the databse file does not
> support the attached basic library stucture that the other
> doucment types in OO do, and that attaching any macro code to
> form documents causes a conflict with the macro security module
> one is faced with always putting code into outside libraries.
agree
<>

> Then there is the issue of stability.
>
> My understanding is that release 1.9.130 is, or is very close
> too, the first release candidate for OpenOffice verison 2.0. If
> this is the case then there seems to be a serious amount of work
> left to do.
-oRowSet.deleteRow()				OOo ->crash
-oConnection.Queries.removeByName(QueryName(i))	does silently 
nothing
-documentation
-IDE
-...
-->a release with this state can only gather severe critism

> Just today it became clear to me that the very first 
> requirement of a database management system, as it pertains to
> the embedded database engine, is not being met. You must not, if
> possible, lose the data! 
> I would refer you to new issue #54609 
> <http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=54609>, and my
> obsurd test that I recount at
> http://www.oooforum.org/forum/viewtopic.phtml?t=24043 . I call it
> absurd, because it should be clear that one record would have
> been enough, but the point is made quite concrete with a million.
-Can confirm 54609, have data loss also experied after a silent (not 
reported) error in BASIC

-This bug may explain a strange things:

    print oConn.Tables.hasByName(sEOYY)	->false
        oStmtDest.executeUpdate("CREATE TABLE sEOYY ...
     print oConn.Tables.hasByName(sEOYY)	->false
=>should be true
    oRowSet.updateString(5, "bla") ...
    oRowSet.insertRow()	
==>crash OOo
    but
    after recover the table is visible in Base.Tables, both print 
'true' and update works as usual

-have the feeling (not hunted) that restart OOo is sometimes not 
enough, it needs restart the window manager, because Base seems to 
use memory parts used before (seen after a change: fixed stmt 
IsoDate ->later seen DD.MM.YY)
<>

> IMO there is a trend here. There is a belief that what you had
> before was sufficient and what you are creating now is, well, not
> really worth the effort.
>
> It is with all earnestness that I ask you to think about this.
> Like it or not when you announced the inclusion of a database
> module in OpenOffice you created an expectation amongs new
> possible users. On this point I believe there may exist the
> largest problem of all. Who is the target user of a databae
> module. I don't believe it is the user that will put data into a
> data entry form, nor the user that will run the reports.
> Although, these will be the greatest numbers of persons. A
> database module will be fundamentaly different then say a word
> processer, where the focus of the application is the document and
> the primary user the person creating the document. IMO the
> primary user of the module will be in-house and third party
> database application developers, for the database is used to
> implement processes within an organization. Up till now, I
> believe, the focus of the datasource controls within OO have been
> to feed data into documents. Not used as a basis to build data
> validation and process mangement applications. But these are
> precisely the uses your competitors database is used for. Again
> look at the OOOForm postings, for every one person that is
> talking about a very limited, trivial database application, there
> is a good number talking about small office automation tasks. I
> personally have a hald dozen people on the board that have spoken
> with me in depth, off line, some even supplying there database
> files and requirments so that I might help them. These have been
> people expecting to find a database system capable of automating
> work processes within organizations ranging from 3 users to 9
> users. OOBase as it is conceived is not capable of this without
> using an third party database engine, which I contend defeats the
> purpose of having it as a stand alone module in the first place.
There are a lot of small applications (not for making big 
money :-) ) capable of using HSQLDB together with Calc or Writer.

The first question starting a development should be: _Who_ is the 
customer?, OOo has defined the (changed?) motivation...
For me the customer is the developer of small office automation 
tasks and not the casual user generating some letters with an 
address list.
With good documentation, tools and a professional looking GUI as 
result (Dialog, not Writer) you can gain also 'not professional' 
users as developers.

> In closing let me say this. There will be a large number of
> people that will come and take a serious look at OO now, because
> of the Base module. Many if not most will be comparing it to MS
> Access, with this being the measuring stick I am afraid that 
> OO.o will not get a long review.
agree

> I urge you to take the time to sit down, look at what you intend
> Base to be and who it's intended audiance is and then make these
> known to the public. For right now, what is being expected and
> what is being delivered are far from the same.
agree

Best regards,
Wolfgang

PS
use OOo m130 on Linux 2.6.10-ARCH