Re: User related mailing list

NoOp wrote:
> On 08/25/2011 09:33 AM, Mathias Bauer wrote:
>> Am 24.08.2011 22:47, schrieb NoOp:
>>
>>> Hmmm... OK. It was 'tongue-in-cheek' Drew. I'll not even comment on the
>>> Sun->Oracle lists transition :-) But I will add this; if OOoA goes to
>>> forums only, then I'll not be participating.
>>
>
> Mathias, thanks for the thoughtful response. My reply is in-line below.
>
>> I think we all should try to become more open for new development. It is
>> clear that mailing lists are easier to handle for the "regulars", the
>> most active participants. But OTOH a huge number of users looking for
>> help (if not the vast majority) aren't experienced mail users.
>>
>> The results are known:
>>
>> - posts without subjects
>> - destroyed threads
>> - frequent mails with "why do I get all these mails, please help me out
>> of here" (and that's just the polite version ;-))
>> - quoting disasters
>>
>> etc.
>>
>> So many of the benefits of a mailing list are partially destroyed.
>> OTOH most users are used to web fora - and they know how to use them.
>
> And those 'new' users should be directed to a web forum with the option
> to also use a mailing list instead. The primary issues with OOo was that
> users (new or old) were immediatly directed to the mail list from the
> main OOo support page. Hence we ended up with new users on the list that
> had no clue that that they were joining a mailing list, or what a
> mailing list is. To further compound the issue, users were allowed to
> post without registering (still true today) and hence the 'regulars'
> had/have to go hunting in headers to find out if the post is from a
> subscribed list user. All of that is history that we all know very well,
> so no sense rehashing here.
>
>>
>> For many years my answer to the question "mailing list or web forum for
>> user support" would have been the same as yours - but times have changed
>> and so I tried to find out why I prefer mailing lists over web fora.
>> Remember, we are not talking about technical discussions or developer
>> talks, it's about supporting users that usually just want to drop a
>> question and not "join a community". Or maybe, they might consider
>> joining later, when they received a lot of help and started to like the
>> forum.
>>
>> At the end there are only two things that really upset me:
>>
>> - without threads longer discussions are a mess
>> - especially for power supporters it is important to track the status
>> of posts reliably ("read" status or other markers like "important" etc.).
>>
>> There are already many fora that support threading, and as the
>> maintenance of the thread no longer depends on the capabilities of the
>> mail clients and their users, they might even do it better than the
>> average support mailing list (IMHO users@ooo is a mess in that regard).
>>
>> So for me the second point (tracking of status) would be crucial: if the
>> web forum was able to support me *reliably* in that regard, I could come
>> to terms with it.
>>
>> It would be even better if there was a forum software that interacts
>> with a mailing list in a bidirectional way: best of both worlds.
>
> It would, but I've not seen one.
>
>>
>> Please, try to think about your statement again: is it really impossible
>> to cope with web fora? It would be a pity to lose your valuable
>> contributions in case the discussion arrived at the decision to prefer
>> web fora for support.
>
> I participate in many, many mail lists on a daily basis&  cannot
> possible begin to imagine trying to do so if all were web based forums.
> I also eliminate the need to fill my mailbox with messages from each by
> utilizing nntp via the gmane.org server. That way I can easily search
> the threads, see the new subjects headers, mark a thread as read if it
> is of no interest to me, mark threads as read by date if I've been away
> for a few days, tag threads by headers, and killfile a 'VENDAS -
> VITALLY' if I wish. Further I can easily switch from this list to the
> user list, etc., at the click of a mouse. And finally, if I wish to have
> an local archive of the list, I simply set my nntp reader (SeaMonkey) to
> download for offline viewing/sorting/searching etc. I can't do that with
> a web based forum.
>
> Here is a sample screenshot:
> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/402/screenshotgmanecompopen.png/
>
> I participate on the Ubuntu users mailing list nearly every day. Ubuntu
> have one of the best web based forums around - in fact I search it for
> answers (via Google) on a regular basis. However I've probably posted
> there once, and only login if I need to see an archived message that is
> not available any longer to non-logged in users. For many Ubuntu users
> the forum is the place to be&  they are happy there. For me, the mail
> list is the place to be&  allows me to easily answer/ask questions with
> a nearly immediate reply.
>
>    Would I abandon helping on Ubuntu were the usser mail list go away?
> The answer is a resounding *yes*. Instead I'd put much more effort into
> the alt.os.linux.ubuntu newsgroup (even with it's trolls and
> detractors), or some other 'unofficial' mail list.
>
> So, to answer your question: yes. For me if OOoA goes to
> web based forums only, then I'll not be participating.
>
>>
>> BTW, mailing lists also are limited in the way how you can work with
>> them - you can't offer new features as this would require to update all
>> the mail clients. In web fora everything is under control of the admin.
>
> And that is the issue: "In web fora everything is under control of the
> admin". In mail list fora the user has a reasonable amount of control.
>
>>
>> Adding better search options (better than "download the archive and
>> search for it") or rating techniques could avoid a lot of questions that
>> have been answered already - wouldn't that be an improvement? We won't
>> be able to add any new features supporting users to a mailing list - web
>> fora can do a lot more and there are numerous examples for it.
>
> Such as? Can you honestly demonstrate a web based forum that the user
> can quickly and easily do as I do with my gmane.org nntp mail list setup?
>
> Add to that the excellent point made by Andy Brown regarding
> bandwidth/dialup issue. OOo targets all types of users, but is of
> particular value to 3rd world (includes US areas) users with limited
> and/or no regular internet connectivity.
>
> Andy's post reminded me of when I was working for a startup company
> years ago; they designed their website with features only high bandwidth
> users could access (similar to the move to OpenGL now). It didn't take
> them long to realise that users from international locations (and dialup
> locations in the US) couldn't even view the website - at all. A lot of
> business was lost in the 6 months that it took me to convince them to
> change. The same is/was observed for websites that only had Adobe Flash
> &  no alternative.
>
>>
>> As a developer I like "stackoverflow.com" where posts and replies can be
>> voted and posters get credits in return (simply put). Both means can
>> help users to get through the jungle of posts and find the best answer
>> just by searching, not by asking. And posts can be tagged, so you can
>> search for them much better and faster than just scanning subjects.
>
> And you'd expect the same "new" users to OOo to understand:
> http://stackoverflow.com/search
>
>>
>> Again, we should try to become more open for new development and
>> evaluate it without preconceived opinions.
>
> Yes "we" should. My initial post still stands:
>
> The answer is quite simple:  notify all posters in the thread that their
> current thread&  all further [email protected] discussions
> will be closed immediately and transferred to a web forum site instead.
>
> In fact modify that to: The answer is quite simple:  notify all users in
> [email protected] that all further
> [email protected] discussions will be closed immediately and
> transferred to a web forum site instead.
>
> I suspect the reaction to that would be somewhat violent :-)

It would be.  The problem with that is that the Apache rules require 
that any and all development, not just coding, is required to take place 
on the dev@ list for the project.  The saying is "If it did not happen 
on the list, it did not happen".

Andy
>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mathias
>
> Thanks again for the thoughtful reply Mathias. It's well appreciated.
>
> Gary
>

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