Re: [native-lang] Position of Native-Lang and other non-coding parts of the communty

Hi Sophie, all,

Sophie Gautier schrieb:
> Hi Bernhard, all,
> Bernhard Dippold wrote:
> [...]
>> Communication among developers and "non-coders" is a topic in
>> probably every open source project, but OpenOffice.org is different
>> from most of the other projects, because the community was build
>> around an exsting high quality code basis.
> 
> Yes and as Andre pointed, there have been several improvements over the
> years.
> [...] 
 > You have to guess every time what is
> happening and what is behind this happening.

And some times you are not even informed that anything is happening at 
all...

> The wiki is another media where proposals are made in a transparent way,
> great. But some of the proposals here need to have more warnings than
> others because that will impact all of us.

There is a lot of work being done in the wiki, but it's nearly 
impossible to find out the impact of something that has been added there 
on the community and the end users.

> An example :
> http://fr.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=70748
> http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/make_everything_as_simple_as
> http://specs.openoffice.org/writer/numbering/OutlineLevel.odt
> This is very interesting and will have a quite important level of impact
> on the way OOo is used, trained, marketed...

Especially the migration problems (page 10 on the specs document) for 
users of previous versions (backward compatibility) could get more 
interest than "I don't see any solution for the already released versions".

Perhaps someone else could help out with such a solution...

> We (all of us who are directly connected with the user base) are
> concerned and could give a valuable feedback on the style feature.
> 
> But unfortunately we are not considered as the voice who can bring that 
> feedback...

Where did you talk to the iTeam members? I'm not subscribed to the 
developer lists at sw.OOo or where else it might be discussed - neither 
in the issue nor on [email protected] I found any comments.

This is one of the points I meant - even if the information is public, 
it is not found by people looking at the wrong places...

We should find such an appropriate place for discussions that should 
have a broader audience - a place where developers might explain why 
they decided one way or another and hear the concerns other people have.

I remember long discussions inside an issue that lead to some kind of 
compromises - but at least I only got notice of such an issue when I 
stumbled across modified features I considered to be a bug and searched 
for relevant issues.

The specification process is under constant improvement (and I learn 
every now and then about another relevant mailing list), so things are 
turning to become better. But I know that I am not able to read every 
specs announcement so thoroughly that I find possible quirks for the 
user related parts of the community (probably seen with different 
relevance by the iTeam members).

What we need is better communication - and the feeling that our concerns 
are taken serious by the developers.

This has improved during the last year(s), but sometimes we have to find 
the right language and arguments (and platform)...

 > [...] ... this is the exact topic of a discussion Andre and
> Cloph have bring to the CC.
>>[...]
>> But how could we change this?
>>
>> What I feel is, that the gap between developers and non-coders is
>> becoming a bit smaller, but there is still a lot to do.
> 
> There is mostly for me a market place to find that will allow the
> pressure lowering down. We know that Sun need money so we should all
> speak about this and propose solutions. I've learned from the OOoCon 
> that the online update feature will be a revenue stream for Sun. Ok, 
> then ? Where is it designed and what is our (the community) place in 
> this figure ?

Reading the web page [1] more thoroughly, I think these questions should 
be discussed ("Please allow us to make you aware that Sun Microsystems 
is glad to ... provide you with this update notification.")- where?

On discuss@OOo?
> 
>>
> [...] ... if the page is already on line, it's simply too late. I never
> said that it is done in purpose to add issues, but the result is the same.

... but the page could be modified afterwards ...
>>
>> [...]
>> In my eyes this is the only way to increase real *team* work between
>> developers and us non-coders:
>>
>> To intensify the awareness of the others.
> 
> Yes, you're right. So how could we do that, we need that developers have
> this willing as well as us. If we don't change the "the one who 
> implements is the winner" posture, whatever you try to do would be 
> defeated.

This *is* a major problem in a community of volunteers ("If we don't do 
it my way, you may look for someone else to do it at all"). In a 
community with major contributors having different goals...

> Sun has a marketing line for OOo (where developers could have 
> a different one) and where the community have nothing to say.

... it might be even worse.

> Even if you know that you can help and share a lot.

But in this case these different goal should be pronounced openly (at 
least the part of it that isn't covered by confidential company policy).

Even with such preconditions there are possibilities where collaboration 
will lead to a better result for both.

If this commonplace is not to be understood, perhaps Christians (cloph) 
and Andrés approach will lead to better results...
>>
>> OpenOffice.org is so huge, that it is impossible to stay informed
>> about what happens in other projects. Our newsletter gives a short
>> overview of the most important things, so I encourage everybody
>> (including each developer) to subscribe to announce@OOo and read at
>> least the titles.
> 
> Currently, there is also the lists, but also the wiki, but also Planet 
> OOo, but also Gullfoss

... too much different platforms IMHO (but who is in the position to 
change it?).

There are many blogs by OOo members, but if they write an (in their 
opinion) important blog entry, they (hopefully) post the bottom line at 
the relevant lists. For some Gullfoss entries this is the same, but I 
don't want to know the amount of important information only shared among 
a small number of like-minded people...
>>
>[...]
> this is a lot of energy to be the one who always ask about
> clarification, communication, coordination and most of the time the
> answer is that you're not representative enough...

I know - and still hope that times are changing ...
>>
>>[...]
> As Andre said, we (NLC leads) have already been notified that Sun is not 
> interested by our user base feedback. I voted for the last survey 
> conducted by IDC but again it's English only so what would be the 
> results of this survey and what should I answer when users ask me what 
> to do with this survey they don't understand a word ? They feel useless.

This survey could have been much more impact if the community would have 
been involved. I hope that this example will be remembered in comparable 
situations...

We'll have to keep working on these topics, even if it feels like 
Sisyphus' work...

IMHO there is no alternative to make OpenOffice.org become a community 
worth to be called this way.

Best regards

Bernhard