RE: Re: Some thoughts

Hi Ron,

> > Dale wrote:
> >> Here's how I resolve it.  "XP does not offer specific, pre-defined
> >> lessons about management [paragraph 1]. Managers will invent
> >> management lessons for themselves as a result of participating on and
> >> interacting with XP projects [paragraph 2]."
> >>
> >> That may or may not be what Charlie meant.  It may or may not be true.
> >>  But it resolves the contradiction for me.
>
> > Yes!!! This is one of those cases where something is so "obvious" to
> > me, that I don't know how to explain it.
>
> Thanks, Dale, for that offering. I waited to hear what Charlie said before
> this reply, but it's your resolution above that may be getting us unstuck.

I've been doing some other stuff for a few days but let's try some more.

> Charlie, Dale, et al:
>
> I certainly agree that managers will invent management lessons for
> themselves through interacting with XP projects. This is exactly what
> happens to programmers and customers who do the XP practices, and I'd
> expect no less from managers.
>
> However, it seems to me that XP could, should, and maybe even does offer
> advice to managers about dealing with XP projects. Managers need, it seems
> to me, to understand what an XP project needs in the way of
> management, and
> -- perhaps more importantly -- what it does not. For example:
>
>   - your XP project does not require you to make individual assignments:
>   your people will pick their own, in accordance with your priorities and
>   those of the XP customer.
>
>   - your XP project will automatically throw off valuable information that
>   you can use in reporting status and predicting results, such as
> [etc]. If
>   you need more information, or information in a particular form, one good
>   way to get it is to schedule its preparation as XP "stories", so that it
>   will fit in smoothly with the work.
>
> .. and so on.

I agree with this. I just wouldn't call it special to XP. That is to say,
the information is XP-specific because we're doing XP, but the act of
adjusting management to the particular way things are done isn't unique
at all - it's what they're supposed to do.

However, I do agree that XP has to show management what XP needs.

> So I agree with Dale's second phrase, but not with the first. It seems to
> me that we have a lot to say to managers about managing XP projects, and
> about what XP projects will enable them to do, and how they'll do it.

I suppose we could do that. What if we just told them what possibilities
we offer and asked them to figure out how they would make use of them.

> Ron Jeffries
> www.XProgramming.com
> The greatest mistake we make is living in constant fear that we
> will make one.
>   --  John Maxwell
>
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