Re: Strange agile articles

I can't speak for other countries, but Prince2 is most definitely NOT in
widespread use in Canada. In fact I don't believe I've ever seen it
mentioned in a job or contract listing.  We're PMI just like the US (for
better or worse).

Dave...

On 11 October 2016 at 15:53, Massimo Manca [email protected]
[extremeprogramming] <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
> Il 11/10/2016 20:54, Robin Dymond [email protected]
> [extremeprogramming] ha scritto:
> >
> > Hi Massimo,
> >
> > I ran into Prince in Europe when working there in 2009-2012, it is not
> > used much or well known in North America. Here we have the PMI and the
> > PMP certification, and their PMI-ACP (Agile Certified Practitioner)
> > certification. PMI-ACP is a wide and thin overview of frameworks (XP,
> > Scrum, DSDM, etc) and Agile.
> Yes, born in UK government side and exported in North-Europe, Canada and
> Australia also if they say it is used in about 50 countries.
> >
> > I do not know Prince2-Agile, however, it sounds like we have the same
> > issues, just a different waterfall certification vendor.
> I didn't use it, I just received the updated when they delivered in
> 2015, just as a reference and give you a quick idea this in my opinion
> is the most clear page succinctly describing it:
> http://prince2agile.wiki/An_Overview_of_PRINCE2_Agile
>
> >
> > General Project Management has some good skills to learn, like
> > stakeholder management, figuring out agreements that work for both
> > sides, being organized and procurement. Most of the other "skills" are
> > not needed when moving to an Agile framework. Instead different skills
> > are valued, people skills such as coaching, mentoring, conflict
> > resolution, team work and collaboration skills. Technical skills, well
> > too many to list.
> >
> > When I train PMs in Scrum I tell them very clearly that there is no
> > project manager in Scrum. Then we write down all the things PMs do
> > today and we figure which role will do them in Scrum, PO, SM or Team.
> > I do mention that when doing large scale Agile with many teams we
> > sometimes have PMs who help us coordinate events, however there are
> > few of these roles.
> >
> > So they need to change, and I recommend they "try on" a new role for a
> > while, and not be forced into a role. Making all the PMs Customers/POs
> > or making them all Agile Coaches/SMs does not work, and maybe some
> > would be more effective on the team. In either case there are likely
> > large gaps in knowledge and behavior that need to be overcome for
> > people to reach their potential in Agile.
> >
> > I think what we are seeing is the Prince org and the PMI trying to
> > stay relevant, and continue to make their constituents feel like they
> > have a special place in delivery, instead of helping them find a new
> > way to work and behave. This is causing problems, and will continue to
> > do so until companies kill the demand for these roles. In one US based
> > insurance company on their second attempt at going Agile they laid off
> > all the PMs and then opened new positions like Scrum Master and
> > Product Owner, and the PMs could apply for those roles, but would have
> > to compete for them. It was enough to get people out of their PM
> > comfort zone and thinking about how to change.
> >
> > I expect we will spend another decade dealing with faux Agile
> > adoption. Coddled monopolistic markets such as financial services will
> > struggle the most. Competitive Darwinian markets will evolve faster.
> > So if you don't want to deal with faux Agile, focus on working with
> > businesses that are well positioned and have steady pressure from a
> > variety of competitors.
> I totally agree, thanks for your opinion.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Robin Dymond, CST
> > Managing Partner, Innovel
> > www.innovel.net <http://www.innovel.net>
> > www.scrumtraining.com <http://www.scrumtraining.com>
> > Direct: (804) 239-4329
> > twitter: @robindymond
> > Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond
> > <https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond>
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Massimo Manca
> > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> > [extremeprogramming] <[email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Il 11/10/2016 07:51, Robin Dymond [email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]>
>
> > [extremeprogramming] ha scritto:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello Massimo,
> > >
> > > The article linked is not from a scrum alliance trainer. Anyone can
> > > submit an article to the scrum alliance for posting. No idea how
> > this
> > > one got past the reviewers, probably because the staff are mostly
> > > event planners and support staff, not trainers and coaches, we
> > are all
> > > free range. I don't know if it will be removed, however I think it
> > > does not belong on that site.
> > Hello Robin, I know what happened because I am following the thread on
> > LinkedIn and I start the thread here to share what is happening.
> > About the author you wrote what scrumalliance wrote but he results
> > to be
> > a "certified SCRUM master" so I think for this reason there was no
> > control on his article:
> > https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/profile/pmude
> > <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/profile/pmude> but this is my
> > personal feeling.
> >
> > I also use agile methods and processes since '90s (starting with lean
> > methods in a factory and then in R&D department) experimenting, doing
> > right and wrong things and so on. But seems to me recently things are
> > going worst and there are many signals I receive from collegues
> > working
> > with companies from India and Brazil so I shared these info with
> > the group.
> >
> > If you know Prince2 and Prince2-Agile I would know what you think
> > about
> > them if you think them real agile project management processes and
> > eventually why.
> >
> > I personally used Prince2 because was required in some tenders I
> > participate and I don't feel it agile at all. I feel Prince2-Agile
> > just
> > a way to make-up Prince2 to say "hey guys, it is agile you don't
> > need to
> > migrate to SCRUM and others" because anyway training and
> > publications is
> > a single company (participate by UK government) business.
> > But I may be wrong and I would like to hear more opinions on them.
> > >
> > > If you want to read what trainers and coaches are saying read the
> > > comments, which are highly critical and go on far longer than the
> > > article, look for CST or CEC in their handle.
> > >
> > > Also would like to point out that there are CSTs like myself who
> > have
> > > been on this list (and many others) for a decade. Thanks to the
> > > efforts of numerous people here the Scrum Alliance offers technical
> > > training in TDD, CI, pairing, refactoring, etc, sometimes taught by
> > > people on this list. It is also by far the hardest training to sell,
> > > as developers would rather learn a new tool (ie swift, aws, oracle)
> > > then learn to test drive their code.
> > I know also if I have a personal opinion about trainings and
> > certifications. I think that we could say an agile process is really
> > agile when we don't need to follow a real training. I mean that a
> > short
> > printed guide, a set of use cases and a set of exercises/simulations
> > would be more than sufficient to start. Of course you may say that
> > it is
> > not very far from to follow a training... but take it as a general
> > thought.
> > About certifications: I think before to train others, trainers would
> > need to apply for several years, in Europe there are too many
> > certified
> > agile trainers (I don't speak only about SCRUM) that really have
> > little
> > to do and to share ending with solutions and examples not far from the
> > scoreboard.
> > >
> > > My opinion is the article is a POS, and certainly does not represent
> > > the opinion of any agilists who I know and respect.
> > >
> > > Any change effort suffers from relabelling, where people attach the
> > > new labels to old roles and behaviors. We see this often in Agile
> > > adoption. Learning new behaviors is hard and takes time. It
> > often also
> > > requires structural changes to the organization. Most of the hard
> > > changes needed, like eliminating silos (ie separate testing
> > dept) have
> > > little to do with XP. They are organizational design problems that
> > > stem from legacy structures and mindset, like those on display
> > in this
> > > article.
> > >
> > > Robin Dymond, CST
> > > Managing Partner, Innovel
> > > www.innovel.net <http://www.innovel.net> <http://www.innovel.net>
> > > www.scrumtraining.com <http://www.scrumtraining.com>
> > <http://www.scrumtraining.com>
> > > Direct: (804) 239-4329
> > > twitter: @robindymond
> > > Linkedin:https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond
> > <https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond>
> > > <https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond
> > <https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond>>
> > >
> > > On Oct 10, 2016 8:01 AM, "Massimo Manca
> > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]>>[extremeprogramming]"
> > > <[email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]>
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
> > > There are other funny folks promoting Prince2 and Prince2-Agile
> > as agile
> > > project management processes.
> > > I used Prince2 in the past because in UK and West Europe is a common
> > > requirement in public tenders but I didn't see any agility in
> > it. They
> > > just write down how to organize and manage a project with the
> > lesson of
> > > the "old school" and maintaining a hierarchical structure.
> > > Instead I know Prince2-Agile only because when was published I
> > received
> > > the booklet. Seems to me an old "command and control" PM over
> > SCRUM so
> > > is a heavier SCRUM defining much more roles and using stages and
> > > milestones to control the project status.
> > > I am interested also to hear comments on them.
> > >
> > > Il 10/10/2016 03:01, Charlie Poole [email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]>
> > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> > > [extremeprogramming] ha scritto:
> > > >
> > > > I particularly enjoyed this...
> > > >
> > > > > The Agile Scorecard is a reflection of disciplined "Agile
> > values"
> > > >
> > > > The author was quite right to put "Agile values" in quotation
> > marks,
> > > > apparently wanting us to understand that this is a parody, or
> > so one
> > > > can only hope. :-)
> > > >
> > > > Charlie
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 4:08 PM, Massimo Manca
> > > > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]>><mailto:
> [email protected]
>
> > <mailto:[email protected]>
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]>>>
> > > > [extremeprogramming] <[email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]>
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]>>
> > > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]>
> >
> >
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]>>>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi guys,
> > > >
> > > > I think you have LinkedIn profiles as me, so may be you
> > already read
> > > > these things but in the last couple of days happened that several
> > > > trainers published articles about agile processes introducing
> > measures
> > > > and artifacts having nothing to do with agile.
> > > >
> > > > This is the link to the worst one published by
> > scrumalliance.org <http://scrumalliance.org>
> > > <http://scrumalliance.org>
> > > > <http://scrumalliance.org> (but I
> > > > know it because I found a post on LinkedIn).
> > > >
> > > >
> > https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/
> october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles
> > <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/
> october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles>
> > >
> > <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/
> october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles
> > <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/
> october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles>>
> > > >
> > <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/
> october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles
> > <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/
> october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles>
> > >
> > <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/
> october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles
> > <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/
> october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles>>>
> > > >
> > > > There is also this post about a way to manage projects in a way
> > > > that is
> > > > a mix of agile and old fashion project management:
> > > >
> > > >
> > https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=
> 6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT
> > <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=
> 6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT>
> > >
> > <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=
> 6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT
> > <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=
> 6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT>>
> > > >
> > <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=
> 6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT
> > <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=
> 6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT>
> > >
> > <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=
> 6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT
> > <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=
> 6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT>>>
> > > >
> > > > I think we could discuss a little bit about these facts and
> > trying to
> > > > understand why happened.
> > > > Do you agree?
> > > >
> > > > Massimo
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast
> > > > antivirus.
> > > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
> > > <https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> > <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>><https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> > <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
> > > <https://www.avast.com/antivirus <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>>>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > To Post a message, send it to: [email protected]
> > > >
> > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
> > > > [email protected]
> > > >
> > > > ad-free courtesy of objectmentor.com <http://objectmentor.com>
> > > <http://objectmentor.com><http://objectmentor.com
> > <http://objectmentor.com>>
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > (Yahoo! ID required)
> > > >
> > > > [email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]>
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]>>
> > > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]>
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]>>>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast
> > > antivirus.
> > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> > <https://www.avast.com/antivirus> <https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> > <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>>
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ---
> > Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast
> > antivirus.
> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> ---
> Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast
> antivirus.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 
>