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Il 12/10/2016 01:14, Dave Rooney [email protected]
[extremeprogramming] ha scritto:
>
> I can't speak for other countries, but Prince2 is most definitely NOT
> in widespread use in Canada. In fact I don't believe I've ever seen it
> mentioned in a job or contract listing. We're PMI just like the US
> (for better or worse).
Well to know, Axelos (the company that know manages Prince 2, P2A,
trainings and books) say they are used in about 50 countries and they
listed Canada as one where is widespread. Another reason to think about
P2 and P2A.
>
> Dave...
>
> On 11 October 2016 at 15:53, Massimo Manca
> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> [extremeprogramming] <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Il 11/10/2016 20:54, Robin Dymond [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> [extremeprogramming] ha scritto:
> >
> > Hi Massimo,
> >
> > I ran into Prince in Europe when working there in 2009-2012, it
> is not
> > used much or well known in North America. Here we have the PMI
> and the
> > PMP certification, and their PMI-ACP (Agile Certified Practitioner)
> > certification. PMI-ACP is a wide and thin overview of frameworks
> (XP,
> > Scrum, DSDM, etc) and Agile.
> Yes, born in UK government side and exported in North-Europe,
> Canada and
> Australia also if they say it is used in about 50 countries.
> >
> > I do not know Prince2-Agile, however, it sounds like we have the
> same
> > issues, just a different waterfall certification vendor.
> I didn't use it, I just received the updated when they delivered in
> 2015, just as a reference and give you a quick idea this in my opinion
> is the most clear page succinctly describing it:
> http://prince2agile.wiki/An_Overview_of_PRINCE2_Agile
> <http://prince2agile.wiki/An_Overview_of_PRINCE2_Agile>
>
>
> >
> > General Project Management has some good skills to learn, like
> > stakeholder management, figuring out agreements that work for both
> > sides, being organized and procurement. Most of the other
> "skills" are
> > not needed when moving to an Agile framework. Instead different
> skills
> > are valued, people skills such as coaching, mentoring, conflict
> > resolution, team work and collaboration skills. Technical
> skills, well
> > too many to list.
> >
> > When I train PMs in Scrum I tell them very clearly that there is no
> > project manager in Scrum. Then we write down all the things PMs do
> > today and we figure which role will do them in Scrum, PO, SM or
> Team.
> > I do mention that when doing large scale Agile with many teams we
> > sometimes have PMs who help us coordinate events, however there are
> > few of these roles.
> >
> > So they need to change, and I recommend they "try on" a new role
> for a
> > while, and not be forced into a role. Making all the PMs
> Customers/POs
> > or making them all Agile Coaches/SMs does not work, and maybe some
> > would be more effective on the team. In either case there are likely
> > large gaps in knowledge and behavior that need to be overcome for
> > people to reach their potential in Agile.
> >
> > I think what we are seeing is the Prince org and the PMI trying to
> > stay relevant, and continue to make their constituents feel like
> they
> > have a special place in delivery, instead of helping them find a new
> > way to work and behave. This is causing problems, and will
> continue to
> > do so until companies kill the demand for these roles. In one US
> based
> > insurance company on their second attempt at going Agile they
> laid off
> > all the PMs and then opened new positions like Scrum Master and
> > Product Owner, and the PMs could apply for those roles, but
> would have
> > to compete for them. It was enough to get people out of their PM
> > comfort zone and thinking about how to change.
> >
> > I expect we will spend another decade dealing with faux Agile
> > adoption. Coddled monopolistic markets such as financial
> services will
> > struggle the most. Competitive Darwinian markets will evolve faster.
> > So if you don't want to deal with faux Agile, focus on working with
> > businesses that are well positioned and have steady pressure from a
> > variety of competitors.
> I totally agree, thanks for your opinion.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Robin Dymond, CST
> > Managing Partner, Innovel
> > www.innovel.net <http://www.innovel.net> <http://www.innovel.net>
> > www.scrumtraining.com <http://www.scrumtraining.com>
> <http://www.scrumtraining.com>
> > Direct: (804) 239-4329 <tel:%28804%29%20239-4329>
> > twitter: @robindymond
> > Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond>
> > <https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond>>
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Massimo Manca
> > [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> > [extremeprogramming] <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Il 11/10/2016 07:51, Robin Dymond [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>
> > [extremeprogramming] ha scritto:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello Massimo,
> > >
> > > The article linked is not from a scrum alliance trainer.
> Anyone can
> > > submit an article to the scrum alliance for posting. No idea how
> > this
> > > one got past the reviewers, probably because the staff are mostly
> > > event planners and support staff, not trainers and coaches, we
> > are all
> > > free range. I don't know if it will be removed, however I think it
> > > does not belong on that site.
> > Hello Robin, I know what happened because I am following the
> thread on
> > LinkedIn and I start the thread here to share what is happening.
> > About the author you wrote what scrumalliance wrote but he results
> > to be
> > a "certified SCRUM master" so I think for this reason there was no
> > control on his article:
> > https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/profile/pmude
> <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/profile/pmude>
> > <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/profile/pmude
> <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/profile/pmude>> but this
> is my
> > personal feeling.
> >
> > I also use agile methods and processes since '90s (starting with
> lean
> > methods in a factory and then in R&D department) experimenting,
> doing
> > right and wrong things and so on. But seems to me recently
> things are
> > going worst and there are many signals I receive from collegues
> > working
> > with companies from India and Brazil so I shared these info with
> > the group.
> >
> > If you know Prince2 and Prince2-Agile I would know what you think
> > about
> > them if you think them real agile project management processes and
> > eventually why.
> >
> > I personally used Prince2 because was required in some tenders I
> > participate and I don't feel it agile at all. I feel Prince2-Agile
> > just
> > a way to make-up Prince2 to say "hey guys, it is agile you don't
> > need to
> > migrate to SCRUM and others" because anyway training and
> > publications is
> > a single company (participate by UK government) business.
> > But I may be wrong and I would like to hear more opinions on them.
> > >
> > > If you want to read what trainers and coaches are saying read the
> > > comments, which are highly critical and go on far longer than the
> > > article, look for CST or CEC in their handle.
> > >
> > > Also would like to point out that there are CSTs like myself who
> > have
> > > been on this list (and many others) for a decade. Thanks to the
> > > efforts of numerous people here the Scrum Alliance offers
> technical
> > > training in TDD, CI, pairing, refactoring, etc, sometimes
> taught by
> > > people on this list. It is also by far the hardest training to
> sell,
> > > as developers would rather learn a new tool (ie swift, aws,
> oracle)
> > > then learn to test drive their code.
> > I know also if I have a personal opinion about trainings and
> > certifications. I think that we could say an agile process is really
> > agile when we don't need to follow a real training. I mean that a
> > short
> > printed guide, a set of use cases and a set of exercises/simulations
> > would be more than sufficient to start. Of course you may say that
> > it is
> > not very far from to follow a training... but take it as a general
> > thought.
> > About certifications: I think before to train others, trainers would
> > need to apply for several years, in Europe there are too many
> > certified
> > agile trainers (I don't speak only about SCRUM) that really have
> > little
> > to do and to share ending with solutions and examples not far
> from the
> > scoreboard.
> > >
> > > My opinion is the article is a POS, and certainly does not
> represent
> > > the opinion of any agilists who I know and respect.
> > >
> > > Any change effort suffers from relabelling, where people
> attach the
> > > new labels to old roles and behaviors. We see this often in Agile
> > > adoption. Learning new behaviors is hard and takes time. It
> > often also
> > > requires structural changes to the organization. Most of the hard
> > > changes needed, like eliminating silos (ie separate testing
> > dept) have
> > > little to do with XP. They are organizational design problems that
> > > stem from legacy structures and mindset, like those on display
> > in this
> > > article.
> > >
> > > Robin Dymond, CST
> > > Managing Partner, Innovel
> > > www.innovel.net <http://www.innovel.net>
> <http://www.innovel.net> <http://www.innovel.net>
> > > www.scrumtraining.com <http://www.scrumtraining.com>
> <http://www.scrumtraining.com>
> > <http://www.scrumtraining.com>
> > > Direct: (804) 239-4329 <tel:%28804%29%20239-4329>
> > > twitter: @robindymond
> > > Linkedin:https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond>
> > <https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond>>
> > > <https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond>
> > <https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond>>>
> > >
> > > On Oct 10, 2016 8:01 AM, "Massimo Manca
> > [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>>[extremeprogramming]"
> > > <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>>> wrote:
> > > There are other funny folks promoting Prince2 and Prince2-Agile
> > as agile
> > > project management processes.
> > > I used Prince2 in the past because in UK and West Europe is a
> common
> > > requirement in public tenders but I didn't see any agility in
> > it. They
> > > just write down how to organize and manage a project with the
> > lesson of
> > > the "old school" and maintaining a hierarchical structure.
> > > Instead I know Prince2-Agile only because when was published I
> > received
> > > the booklet. Seems to me an old "command and control" PM over
> > SCRUM so
> > > is a heavier SCRUM defining much more roles and using stages and
> > > milestones to control the project status.
> > > I am interested also to hear comments on them.
> > >
> > > Il 10/10/2016 03:01, Charlie Poole [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
> > > [extremeprogramming] ha scritto:
> > > >
> > > > I particularly enjoyed this...
> > > >
> > > > > The Agile Scorecard is a reflection of disciplined "Agile
> > values"
> > > >
> > > > The author was quite right to put "Agile values" in quotation
> > marks,
> > > > apparently wanting us to understand that this is a parody, or
> > so one
> > > > can only hope. :-)
> > > >
> > > > Charlie
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 4:08 PM, Massimo Manca
> > > > [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>><mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
>
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>>>
> > > > [extremeprogramming] <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>>
> > > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> >
> >
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>>>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi guys,
> > > >
> > > > I think you have LinkedIn profiles as me, so may be you
> > already read
> > > > these things but in the last couple of days happened that
> several
> > > > trainers published articles about agile processes introducing
> > measures
> > > > and artifacts having nothing to do with agile.
> > > >
> > > > This is the link to the worst one published by
> > scrumalliance.org <http://scrumalliance.org>
> <http://scrumalliance.org>
> > > <http://scrumalliance.org>
> > > > <http://scrumalliance.org> (but I
> > > > know it because I found a post on LinkedIn).
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles
> <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles>
> >
> <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles
> <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles>>
> > >
> >
> <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles
> <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles>
> >
> <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles
> <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles>>>
> > > >
> >
> <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles
> <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles>
> >
> <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles
> <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles>>
> > >
> >
> <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles
> <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles>
> >
> <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles
> <https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2016/october/the-agile-scorecard?feed=articles>>>>
> > > >
> > > > There is also this post about a way to manage projects in a way
> > > > that is
> > > > a mix of agile and old fashion project management:
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT
> <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT>
> >
> <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT
> <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT>>
> > >
> >
> <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT
> <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT>
> >
> <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT
> <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT>>>
> > > >
> >
> <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT
> <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT>
> >
> <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT
> <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT>>
> > >
> >
> <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT
> <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT>
> >
> <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT
> <https://www.linkedin.com/nhome/updates?activity=6190710412472827904&goback=&trk=hb_ntf_REPLIED_TO_YOUR_COMMENT>>>>
> > > >
> > > > I think we could discuss a little bit about these facts and
> > trying to
> > > > understand why happened.
> > > > Do you agree?
> > > >
> > > > Massimo
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---
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> <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>>
> > > <https://www.avast.com/antivirus <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
> > <https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>>><https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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> > <https://www.avast.com/antivirus <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>>
> > > <https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> <https://www.avast.com/antivirus> <https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>>>>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > >
> > > > Yahoo Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > (Yahoo! ID required)
> > > >
> > > > [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
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> <mailto:[email protected]>
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>>
> > > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>>>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---
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> <https://www.avast.com/antivirus <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
> > <https://www.avast.com/antivirus <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>>>
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
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