Re: [extremeprogramming] What has changed for you over the past 20 years?

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Sometimes the hardware is wrong.  Then the battle ensues whether or not the
software should compensate for hardware errors.  For example, the 737MAX.

On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 7:24 AM James Grenning <[email protected]> wrote=
:

> This happens next to hardware:
>
> 1) test drive to the spec off the target hardware. (getting it almost
> right)
> 2) integrate with the hardware and find the places you got it wrong.
> 3) run the off-target tests to see in your tests what you got wrong
> 4) make the tests match the world
> ------------------------------
>
> James Grenning - Author of TDD for Embedded C - wingman-sw.com/tddec
> wingman-sw.com
> wingman-sw.com/blog
> twitter.com/jwgrenning
> facebook.com/wingman.sw
>
> On 5 Dec 2019, at 8:45, Steve Gordon wrote:
>
> There are 3 distinct cases in my mind:
>
> 1. Trivial bug - it is obvious what we did wrong and we just correct it.
> That case might involved fixing a few unit tests, but does not involve T=
DD.
>
> 2. What we did was wrong. - Rip out the wrong code and tests and start
> over with the right functional test.  This involves redoing the developm=
ent
> using TDD, but TDD is no more or less useful that it is for normal
> development.
>
> 3. What we did was right, but we were missing a requirement - formulate =
a
> new user story and implement it.  This again involves TDD, but still in =
the
> ordinary way.
>
> Saying "TDD works great here" implies a non-existent difference with how
> TDD works in normal development.
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:19 AM Ron Jeffries <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> FWIW I [almost] never debug. In most languages I don't even know how to
>> run the debugger. Once in a while, rarely, I'll stuff in a print.
>> Generally, I just write a test that fails.
>>
>> On Dec 5, 2019, at 8:11 AM, Phil Goodwin <[email protected]> wrote=
:
>>
>> Right. There's a step zero involving good old fashioned debugging to fi=
nd
>> the root cause, but then it makes sense to test drive the solution for =
all
>> the trains it makes sense to TDD in the first place.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ron Jeffries
>> ronjeffries.com
>> Whenever I feel discouraged, I remember the words of my then-3 yr old
>> after she puked carrots on the floor: =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m gonna need m=
ore carrots.=E2=80=9D
>> =E2=80=94 @JessicaValenti
>>
>>=20
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Sometimes the hardware is wrong.=C2=A0 Then the battl=
e ensues whether or not the software should compensate=C2=A0for hardware er=
rors.=C2=A0 For example, the 737MAX.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 7:24 AM James Gr=
enning &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u><=
/u>




<div>
<div style=3D"font-family:sans-serif"><div style=3D"white-space:normal">
<p dir=3D"auto">This happens next to hardware:</p>

<p dir=3D"auto">1) test drive to the spec off the target hardware. (gettin=
g it almost right)<br>
2) integrate with the hardware and find the places you got it wrong.<br>
3) run the off-target tests to see in your tests what you got wrong<br>
4) make the tests match the world</p>

<hr style=3D"background:linear-gradient(to right,rgb(204,204,204),rgb(51,5=
1,51),rgb(204,204,204)) rgb(51,51,51);border:0px;height:1px" height=3D"1">

<p dir=3D"auto">James Grenning - Author of TDD for Embedded C - <a href=3D=
"http://wingman-sw.com/tddec" target=3D"_blank">wingman-sw.com/tddec</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"http://wingman-sw.com" target=3D"_blank">wingman-sw.com</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://wingman-sw.com/blog" target=3D"_blank">wingman-sw.com/bl=
og</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://twitter.com/jwgrenning" target=3D"_blank">twitter.com/jw=
grenning</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://facebook.com/wingman.sw" target=3D"_blank">facebook.com/=
wingman.sw</a></p>

<p dir=3D"auto">On 5 Dec 2019, at 8:45, Steve Gordon wrote:</p>

</div>
<div style=3D"white-space:normal"></div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-left:2px solid rgb(119,119,119);color:rgb(119,=
119,119);margin:0px 0px 5px;padding-left:5px"><div id=3D"gmail-m_-260503927=
21155908036F194398-672F-4C4E-BF0E-F12441131B0D"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>There=
 are 3 distinct cases in my mind:</div><div><br></div><div>1. Trivial bug -=
 it is obvious what we did wrong and we just correct it.=C2=A0 That case mi=
ght involved fixing a few unit tests, but does not involve TDD.</div><div><=
br></div><div>2. What we did was wrong. - Rip out the wrong code and tests =
and start over with the right functional test.=C2=A0 This involves redoing =
the development using TDD, but TDD is no more or less useful that it is for=
 normal development.</div><div><br></div><div>3. What we did was right, but=
 we were missing a requirement - formulate a new user story and implement i=
t.=C2=A0 This again involves TDD, but still in the ordinary way.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Saying &quot;TDD works great here&quot; implies a non-existe=
nt difference with how TDD works in normal development.</div><div>=C2=A0<br=
></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail=
_attr">On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 6:19 AM Ron Jeffries &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ro=
[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>FWIW=
 I [almost] never debug. In most languages I don&#39;t even know how to run=
 the debugger. Once in a while, rarely, I&#39;ll stuff in a print. Generall=
y, I just write a test that fails.<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><d=
iv>On Dec 5, 2019, at 8:11 AM, Phil Goodwin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.good=
[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:</div=
><br><div><span style=3D"font-family:ArialMT;font-size:18px;font-style:norm=
al;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-a=
lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spac=
ing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Right. There&#39;s =
a step zero involving good old fashioned debugging to find the root cause, =
but then it makes sense to test drive the solution for all the trains it ma=
kes sense to TDD in the first place.</span></div></blockquote></div><br><di=
v>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text=
-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-size:16px;font-style:normal=
;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px"></div><br>Ron Jeffries<br><a href=3D"http://ronjeffries.com" target=
=3D"_blank">ronjeffries.com</a><br>Whenever I feel discouraged, I=C2=A0rem=
ember the words of my=C2=A0then-3 yr old after she puked=C2=A0carrots on th=
e floor: =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m gonna=C2=A0need more carrots.=E2=80=9D<br>=E2=
=
=80=94 @JessicaValenti</div>
</div>
<br></div>


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