Re: [extremeprogramming] What has changed for you over the past 20 years?
"David Kramer" <[email protected]> Fri, 6 Dec 2019 16:53:47 -0500
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.programming.extreme-programming |
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--------------209D623513735FE6044591C3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (Hey, new list member, been lurking for a few weeks to get a feel for=20 it.=C2=A0 Software Engineering Manager and Agile Coach currently looking f= or=20 opportunities for either role, on the Board of https://agilenewengland.org= ) Part of the "people problem" with this stuff is that as is clear from=20 society as a whole, people don't always act in their best interest,=20 and/or don't strive for the same goals we would in their shoes. Having worked at several companies that were trying to break free of=20 "small company ways of doing things" and trying to drive Agile=20 transformations, better software development practices, and empowered=20 teams, I see a lot of push-back from the very people that hire me, let=20 alone the developers.=C2=A0 As much as they wanted to benefit from Agile,= =20 they didn't want to give up control.=C2=A0 They could not give up=20 micromanaging.=C2=A0 It was more important for them to be in control than = it=20 was for the company to be successful. One company I worked with, I had done a lot of work on empowering teams,= =20 establishing release strategies, branching strategies, continuous=20 builds, etc. =C2=A0 Before I got there the devs had no say in what stories= = =20 went into the sprint, and there was no story grooming, so they would=20 often take multiple sprints to complete, and "done" work would sit weeks= =20 or longer before ending up in a release.=C2=A0 We made great strides, gave= = =20 the development team the power to push back on stories that weren't=20 ready, got stuff tested earlier and more thoroughly, had more successful= =20 releases, and employee satisfaction improved immensely.=C2=A0 I needed to = go=20 out on medical leave for a while, and when I came back, every single=20 practice I had introduced got rolled back, with expected results. With the developers, it is somewhat easier to talk to them about the=20 benefits to them that these practices offer.=C2=A0 With upper management,= =20 there seems to be a lot more in play than listing costs and benefits. On 12/6/19 2:59 PM, R Dymond wrote: > Been there, done that (sorta). > > =C2=A0In a startup with a junior crew, had every dev pair with a TW=20 > consultant to learn TDD and CI. It was 2002 and we were the first=20 > outside thoughtworks to use CC.net. we ran with cc.net <http://cc.net>= =20 > and some devs doing tdd some not. Ran that way for a year. > > Then they lost their investor and downsized, I left. After I left the=20 > remaining team abandoned tdd (except one infected dev), and soon after= =20 > turned off cc.net <http://cc.net>. Eventually, they did choose to=20 > revive cc.net <http://cc.net>, 3 years later. > > I was shocked when I heard the devs chose to abandon disciplines that=20 > had helped to save the business. It took them 3 years to mature to a=20 > point where they recognized the value of CI. I doubt they do tdd.=20 > Since that time I have been involved with many Agile transitions and=20 > seen the same patterns in adopting Scrum and Agile. > > Robin Dymond, CST > Managing Partner, Innovel > www.innovel.net <http://www.innovel.net> > www.scrumtraining.com <http://www.scrumtraining.com> > Direct: (804) 239-4329 > twitter: @robindymond > Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 12:43 PM Ron Jeffries <[email protected]=20 > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > In my view this should never, ever, be done: > >> On Dec 6, 2019, at 12:03 PM, Eb Alson <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> Imposing at the right altitude is critical then because =E2=80=9CUs= ing XP >> or doing TDD=E2=80=9C can also be the goal/standard =C2=A0that a CT= O sets. > > > Ron Jeffries > ronjeffries.com <http://ronjeffries.com> > There's no word for accountability in Finnish. > Accountability is something that is left when responsibility has > been subtracted. > --Pasi Sahlberg > >=20 -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#160475): https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160475 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047 Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/61983806= 5/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- --------------209D623513735FE6044591C3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> <head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF-= 8"> </head> <body> <p>(Hey, new list member, been lurking for a few weeks to get a feel for it.=C2=A0 Software Engineering Manager and Agile Coach currently looking for opportunities for either role, on the Board of <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://agilenewengland.o= rg">https://agilenewengland.org</a> )</p> <p>Part of the "people problem" with this stuff is that as is clear from society as a whole, people don't always act in their best interest, and/or don't strive for the same goals we would in their shoes.</p> <p>Having worked at several companies that were trying to break free of "small company ways of doing things" and trying to drive Agile transformations, better software development practices, and empowered teams, I see a lot of push-back from the very people that hire me, let alone the developers.=C2=A0 As much as they wanted= to benefit from Agile, they didn't want to give up control.=C2=A0 They could not give up micromanaging.=C2=A0 It was more important for the= m to be in control than it was for the company to be successful.=C2=A0= <br> </p> <p>One company I worked with, I had done a lot of work on empowering teams, establishing release strategies, branching strategies, continuous builds, etc. =C2=A0 Before I got there the devs had no sa= y in what stories went into the sprint, and there was no story grooming, so they would often take multiple sprints to complete, and "done" work would sit weeks or longer before ending up in a release.=C2=A0 We made great strides, gave the development team the power to push back on stories that weren't ready, got stuff tested earlier and more thoroughly, had more successful releases, and employee satisfaction improved immensely.=C2=A0 I needed to go out o= n medical leave for a while, and when I came back, every single practice I had introduced got rolled back, with expected results. <br> </p> <p>With the developers, it is somewhat easier to talk to them about the benefits to them that these practices offer.=C2=A0 With upper management, there seems to be a lot more in play than listing costs and benefits.<br> </p> <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 12/6/19 2:59 PM, R Dymond wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:[email protected]= il.com"> <meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUT= F-8"> <div dir=3D"auto">Been there, done that (sorta). <div dir=3D"auto"><br> <div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0In a startup with a junior crew, had eve= ry dev pair with a TW consultant to learn TDD and CI. It was 2002 and=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif">we were t= he first outside thoughtworks to use CC.net. we ran with <a href=3D"http://cc.net" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">cc.net</a> and some devs doing tdd some not. Ran that way for a year.</= span></div> <div dir=3D"auto"><font face=3D"sans-serif"><br> </font></div> <div dir=3D"auto"><font face=3D"sans-serif">Then they lost their investor and downsized, I left. After I left the remaining team abandoned tdd (except one infected dev), and soon after turned off <a href=3D"http://cc.net" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">cc.net</a>. Eventually, they did choose to revive <a href=3D"http://cc.net" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">cc.net</a>, 3 years later.</font>= </div> <div dir=3D"auto"><font face=3D"sans-serif"><br> </font></div> <div dir=3D"auto"><font face=3D"sans-serif">I was shocked when I heard the devs chose to abandon disciplines that had helped to save the business. It took them 3 years to mature to a point where they recognized the value of CI. I doubt they do tdd. Since that time I have been involved with many Agile transitions and seen the same patterns in adopting Scrum and Agile.<br> </font><br> <div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature" dir=3D"auto">Robin Dymond, CST<br> Managing Partner, Innovel<br> <a href=3D"http://www.innovel.net" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">= www.innovel.net</a><br> <a href=3D"http://www.scrumtraining.com" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">www.scrumtraining.com</a><br> Direct: (804) 239-4329<br> twitter: @robindymond<br> Linkedin:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.linkedin.com/in/robindymond" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://www.linkedin.com/in/robin= dymond</a></div> </div> </div> </div> <br> <div class=3D"gmail_quote"> <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 12:43 P= M Ron Jeffries <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"= >In my view this should never, ever, be done:<br> <div><br> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <div>On Dec 6, 2019, at 12:03 PM, Eb Alson <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">amaeze@gma= il.com</a>> wrote:</div> <br> <div><span style=3D"font-family:ArialMT;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant= -caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text= -indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-de= coration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">Imposing at the right altitude is critical then because =E2=80=9CUsing XP or doing TDD=E2=80=9C can also be th= e goal/standard =C2=A0that a CTO sets.</span></div> </blockquote> </div> <br> <div> <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inde= nt:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:br= eak-word"><span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;f= ont-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norm= al;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transfor= m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;border-spacing:0px"> <div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;f= ont-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norm= al;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transfor= m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;border-spacing:0px"> <div><br> Ron Jeffries</div> <div><a href=3D"http://ronjeffries.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">ronjeffries.com</a></di= v> <span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:0= px"> <div>There's no word for accountability in Finnish.=C2=A0</div> <div>Accountability is something that is left when responsibility has been subtracted.=C2=A0</= div> <div>--Pasi Sahlberg</div> </span></span></div> </span></div> </div> <br> </div> </blockquote> </div> </blockquote> </body> </html> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> <hr> Groups.io Links:<p> You receive all messages sent to this group. <p> <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160475">View/Reply Online (#160475)</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject= = =3DRe:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20for%20y= ou%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Group</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DP= rivate:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20f= or%20you%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Sender</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047">Mu= te This Topic</a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/post">New Topic</a><br= > <br> <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/editsub/2417047">Your Su= bscription</a> | <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Contact Group Owner<= /a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/= xyzzy">Unsubscribe</a> [[email protected]]<br> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> --------------209D623513735FE6044591C3--