Re: [extremeprogramming] What has changed for you over the past 20 years?
"Avi Kessner" <[email protected]> Sun, 8 Dec 2019 09:25:20 +0200
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.programming.extreme-programming |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CAGEhWpH49apQGeAH35KX+xjiTGm3Eqn4w+cEr++V-n9TS4F9jg@mail.gmail.com> |
--0000000000003c43eb05992c2f38 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had an idea the other night. It's both really silly but also maybe good, and mybe it's been tried before. I was thinking about the principles of TDD and how it fits into XP in general. What if before committing to the practices, a developer had a way of gaining feedback that they are capable of implementing the practices. I.e. a test, a self assessment test. Take this test, and if you score well, you can have confirmation/confidenc= e that you can engage in X practice safely. On Sun, Dec 8, 2019, 05:58 Larry Brunelle <[email protected]> wrote: > > Thanks for an interesting and enlightening parsing and distilling of > wisdom found in some posts by others. Humans (often regrettably) are > motivated, and behave, well, like humans, and failure to recognize > the same can get us bit pretty good. > > Phil Goodwin wrote: > > Sometimes it pays to not fight fire with fire. Things that are not wel= l > said are perhaps still worth saying. > > > > I think there's an interesting tension here. At the root are the > patterns of dysfunction that pop up in the way people organize themselve= s > to get work done. As a broad generalization we can try to get rid of the > dysfunction by finding a better way and selling it, or we can meet the > organizations we encounter where they are and whittle away at the > dysfunction one behavior at a time. > > > > When I read Robin's post I'm reminded of the times we've tried to brin= g > XP into an organization whose developers understood it well and were cle= ar > about not wanting it. One of the big problems I've encountered while > fighting dysfunction is that dysfunction is not the same as non-function= . > Dysfunctional systems work. They just work in a way that is unpleasant o= r > otherwise sub-optimal (usually by indirectly fulfilling needs that someo= ne > feels shame about). If you try to fix the dysfunction without fulfilling > the unstated need the system will start pushing your changes right back = out. > > > > James is right to be suspicious of any methodology that sells easily > because transformative change is always uncomfortable (or else you'd > already be doing it) and discomfort doesn't sell. I hear Robin making a > different point, which is that we need to meet our teams in the conditio= n > where we find them and understand that they may be optimizing for differ= ent > values than we are. James is warning us away from accepting superficial > changes that don't address the underlying issues. Robin is saying that w= e > shouldn't be so stuck on our own values that we lose sight of what our > customers are valuing. I think there's some common ground to be found in > recognizing the need to dig into the needs and beliefs that drive the > behaviors of the teams we're leading in order to improve the way they > operate. When we do that we'll run into our own ideas about what is opti= mal > and often find that they are in conflict with the other leadership aroun= d > us. It's in the process of resolving those > > conflicts that real improvements will come. > > > > And it's the process of resolution, not the resolution itself, that > brings about meaningful change. If the process unfolds in an honest and > vulnerable way the results will work if they are at all practical. If it > doesn't no amount of formal structure will save the team from itself. > > > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 6:34 PM Tim Ottinger via Groups.Io <linux_tim=3D > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > > Aggro much? > > > > I think that there is no reason that people who aren=E2=80=99t > pro-certification aren=E2=80=99t innovators in plenty of areas. Case in = point: the > original XP people. I don=E2=80=99t think I=E2=80=99ve seen an XP certi= fication, so there > are no innovators there? Do certifications cause innovation or prevent i= t? > > > > Now, that said, none of us gets to choose who the innovators are i= n > the world. You can expect whatever you want, as long as you don=E2=80=99= t blame the > world for not meeting your expectations. > > > > J. Holmes is well respected for his teaching, thinking, writing. I > don=E2=80=99t think we need to rag on him or his views here. > > > > > > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad < > https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=3DiOS> > > > > On Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 19:03, R Dymond <[email protected]= et > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > > Great. So we will not expect any innovation from you. That's O= K. > It took me a while to realize that Extreme Positions don't really do > anything except reflect on me. Calling things broken doesn't fix it. > Waiting for others to change means everything is out of my control, and > that is handy if I want to criticize, and it absolves me of any > responsibility. These days I prefer to act, to have empathy, to recogniz= e > that people have succeeded without many of the ideas we advocate. So we = are > not "right," we have a different approach that we think is better. Our > CUSTOMERS by in large do not agree that it is better. > > > > Regards > > Robin > > > > On Wed, Dec 4, 2019, 5:44 PM <[email protected] <mailto: > [email protected]>> wrote: > > > > I'm always fascinated by folks who look at the corrupt, > burning garbage heap that is Scrum Certification and think, "I want that= , > but for development practices." > > > > I'm increasingly of the opinion that XP remains useful > precisely because it has not had the same popularity that Scrum has > suffered. I'm likewise of the opinion that something that sells as well = as > Scrum in a market full of broken management systems and toxic workplaces= is > to be viewed with extreme suspicion. > > > > > > >=20 > > -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#160485): https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160485 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047 Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/61983806= 5/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- --0000000000003c43eb05992c2f38 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto">I had an idea the other night. It's both really silly= but also maybe good, and mybe it's been tried before.<div dir=3D"auto"= ><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I was thinking about the principles of TDD and= how it fits into XP in general.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir= =3D"auto">What if before committing to the practices, a developer had a wa= y of gaining feedback that they are capable of implementing the practices. = I.e. a test, a self assessment test.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div = dir=3D"auto">Take this test, and if you score well, you can have confirmati= on/confidence that you can engage in X practice safely.</div></div><br><div= class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Dec 8,= 2019, 05:58 Larry Brunelle <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">brunel= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= = =3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br> Thanks for an interesting and enlightening parsing and distilling of<br> wisdom found in some posts by others.=C2=A0 Humans (often regrettably) are= <br> motivated, and behave, well, like humans, and failure to recognize<br> the same can get us bit pretty good.<br> <br> Phil Goodwin wrote:<br> > Sometimes it pays to not fight fire with fire. Things that are not we= ll said are perhaps still worth saying.<br> > <br> > I think there's an interesting tension here. At the root are the = patterns of dysfunction that pop up in the way people organize themselves t= o get work done. As a broad generalization we can try to get rid of the dys= function by finding a better way and selling it, or we can meet the organiz= ations we encounter where they are and whittle away at the dysfunction one = behavior at a time.<br> > <br> > When I read Robin's post I'm reminded of the times we've = tried to bring XP into an organization whose developers understood it well = and were clear about not wanting it. One of the big problems I've encou= ntered while fighting dysfunction is that dysfunction is not the same as no= n-function. Dysfunctional systems work. They just work in a way that is unp= leasant or otherwise sub-optimal (usually by indirectly fulfilling needs th= at someone feels shame about). If you try to fix the dysfunction without fu= lfilling the unstated need the system will start pushing your changes right= back out.<br> > <br> > James is right to be suspicious of any methodology that sells easily = because transformative change is always uncomfortable (or else you'd al= ready be doing it) and discomfort doesn't sell.=C2=A0I hear Robin makin= g a different point, which is that we need to meet our teams in the conditi= on where we find them and understand that they may be optimizing for differ= ent values than we are. James is warning us away from accepting superficial= changes that don't address the underlying issues. Robin is saying that= we shouldn't be so stuck on our own values that we lose sight of what = our customers are valuing. I think there's some common ground to be fou= nd in recognizing the need to dig into the needs and beliefs that drive the= behaviors of the teams we're leading in order to improve the way they = operate. When we do that we'll run into our own ideas about what is opt= imal and often find that they are in conflict with the other leadership aro= und us. It's in the process of resolving those <br> > conflicts that real improvements will come.<br> > <br> > And it's the process of resolution, not the resolution itself, th= at brings about meaningful change. If the process unfolds in an honest and = vulnerable way the results will work if they are at all practical. If it do= esn't no amount of formal structure will save the team from itself.<br> > <br> > On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, 6:34 PM Tim Ottinger via Groups.Io <linux_tim= = =3D<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefer= rer">[email protected]</a> <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:yahoo.com@groups.= io" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email protected]</a>>> wr= ote:<br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Aggro much?<br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think that there is no reason that people who ar= en=E2=80=99t pro-certification aren=E2=80=99t innovators in plenty of areas= . Case in point: the original XP people.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t think I=E2= =80=99ve seen an XP certification, so there are no innovators there? Do ce= rtifications cause innovation or prevent it?<br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Now, that said, none of us gets to choose who the = innovators are in the world. You can expect whatever you want, as long as y= ou don=E2=80=99t blame the world for not meeting your expectations.<br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0J. Holmes is well respected for his teaching, thin= king, writing. I don=E2=80=99t think we need to rag on him or his views her= e.<br> > <br> > <br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad <<a href=3D"https= ://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=3DiOS" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" targe= t=3D"_blank">https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=3DiOS</a>><br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 19:03, R Dymond &l= t;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferre= r">[email protected]</a> <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= " target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email protected]</a>>> wrot= e:<br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Great. So we will not expect any inn= ovation from you. That's OK. It took me a while to realize that Extreme= Positions don't really do anything except reflect on me. Calling thing= s broken doesn't fix it. Waiting for others to change means everything = is out of my control, and that is handy if I want to criticize, and it abso= lves me of any responsibility. These days I prefer to act, to have empathy,= to recognize that people have succeeded without many of the ideas we advoc= ate. So we are not "right," we have a different approach that we = think is better. Our CUSTOMERS by in large do not agree that it is better.<= br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Regards<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Robin<br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Wed, Dec 4, 2019, 5:44 PM <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer"= >[email protected]</a> <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:james.holmes@gmail= .com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email protected]</a>>&g= t; wrote:<br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I'm always fascina= ted by folks who look at the corrupt, burning garbage heap that is Scrum Ce= rtification and think, "I want that, but for development practices.&qu= ot;<br> > <br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I'm increasingly o= f the opinion that XP remains useful precisely because it has not had the s= ame popularity that Scrum has suffered. I'm likewise of the opinion tha= t something that sells as well as Scrum in a market full of broken manageme= nt systems and toxic workplaces is to be viewed with extreme suspicion.<br> > <br> > <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> </blockquote></div> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> <hr> Groups.io Links:<p> You receive all messages sent to this group. <p> <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/messag= e/160485">View/Reply Online (#160485)</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject= = =3DRe:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20for%20y= ou%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Group</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DPri= vate:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bextremeprogramming%5D%20What%20has%20changed%20for= %20you%20over%20the%20past%2020%20years%3F">Reply To Sender</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/mt/39418691/2417047">Mu= te This Topic</a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/post">New Topic</a><br= > <br> <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/editsub/2417047">Your Su= bscription</a> | <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Contact Group Owner<= /a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/extremeprogramming/leave/4902963/619838065/= xyzzy">Unsubscribe</a> [[email protected]]<br> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> --0000000000003c43eb05992c2f38--