Re: Re : SSL w/ PCI best practices

"Van Ceylon, David" <[email protected]> Tue, 23 Feb 2010 09:24:37 -0600
Newsgroups gmane.comp.programming.load-balancing.general
Message-ID <26D139D7C4E9784494738860A529B91E28334C7421@qtomaexmbm21.AD.QINTRA.COM>
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Thank you all for your input here.  It's great to get all these different p=
erspectives and expertise!

David VanCeylon

________________________________
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of K=
enneth Salchow
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 1:56 PM
To: Load Balancing Mailing List
Subject: Re: [load balancing] Re : SSL w/ PCI best practices

Good point Tony-don't want to upset the global CA gods do we? :)

KJ (Ken) Salchow, Jr. | Manager, Technical Marketing

D 651.423.1133

M 612.868.1258

P 206.272.5555

F 206.272.5555

www.f5.com<http://www.f5.com/>



From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of T=
ony Bourke
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 2:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [load balancing] Re : SSL w/ PCI best practices

Something to keep in mind is that when last I checked (which was a bit ago)=
 many SSL providers do require you to purchase an additional *license* for =
each server on the back end for a given cert, even if you're using a self-s=
igned cert behind the load balancer or not re-encrypting.  On a purely tech=
nical level, you only need one SSL certificate, but on a licensing level, m=
any CAs licenses require you purchase an additional license for each server=
.  Got three servers and a pair of load balancers?  You need to buy one cer=
t and two additional licenses.   So be sure to check your SSL providers lic=
enses.

How this translates into VMs, Multi-cores, etc., I'm not sure.

Tony



On 2/18/2010 11:28 AM, Surya ARBY wrote:
Hello David.

Some examples :

- you can use self signed certificates on the server side, while you have o=
nly one public certificate on your SSL accelerator

- you can leverage TCP reuse / http multiplexing / SSL reuse to reduce the =
number of SSL handshakes on the server side even if some entities on the cl=
ient side do not support it.

- using a SSL hardware card (only one) in the LB is far more scalable than =
processing all the SSL load in software on the servers (you can put SSL car=
ds in the servers too but byuing SSL cards for each servers can become quit=
e expensive :) )

- you can use different ciphers on the front end and the back end (for exam=
ple : AES / sha1 on the client side, RC4+md5 on the server side) to reduce =
the load on the servers

etc...

regards,

Surya

--- En date de : Jeu 18.2.10, Van Ceylon, David <[email protected]>=
<mailto:[email protected]> a =E9crit :

De: Van Ceylon, David <[email protected]><mailto:David.VanCeylon@qw=
est.com>
Objet: [load balancing] SSL w/ PCI best practices
=C0: "'Load Balancing Mailing List'" <[email protected]><mailto:[email protected]=
>
Date: Jeudi 18 f=E9vrier 2010, 20h00
Hello -

I have a question regarding the use of SSL while trying to maintain PCI com=
pliance.  If a load balancer/SSL accelerator is handling SSL, what advantag=
e is that in terms of SSL offload if we must re-encrypt back to the servers=
?  This essentially limits the load balancer to URI inspection and distribu=
ting traffic.  There seems to be no advantage to handling Certs (other than=
 wildcard) or de-encryption.  Forgive my ignorance but I'm looking for basi=
c best practices in this situation.

Thanks!

David VanCeylon


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Thank you all for your input here. &nb=
sp;It&#8217;s great to get all these different perspectives and expertise!<=
o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">David VanCeylon<o:p></o:p></span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
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<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center" tabindex=3D"-1">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Tahoma">=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-we=
ight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"=
Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:windowtext">
 [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] <b><span style=3D"f=
ont-weight:bold">On Behalf Of
</span></b>Kenneth Salchow<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, February 18,=
 2010 1:56 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"=
on">Load Balancing Mailing List</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [load balancing=
] Re : SSL w/ PCI best practices</span></font><font color=3D"black"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New R=
oman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D">Good poi=
nt Tony&#8212;don&#8217;t want to upset the global CA gods do we?
</span></font><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Wingdings"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;
color:#1F497D">J</span></font><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Ca=
libri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><=
o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<table class=3D"MsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" width=3D"425=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Arial"=
><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D;font-weigh=
t:bold">KJ (Ken) Salchow, Jr.</span></font></b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1=
f497d" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;col=
or:#1F497D">
 | Manager, Technical Marketing</span></font><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=
=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p><=
/span></font></p>
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ze:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333;font-weight:bold">D 651.423.1133</=
span></font></b><font color=3D"#1f497d"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></font></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"84" height=3D"12" style=3D"width:63.0pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .7=
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al;color:#333333;
  font-weight:bold">M 612.868.1258</span></font></b><font color=3D"#1f497d"=
 face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p></=
o:p></span></font></p>
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<td width=3D"84" height=3D"12" style=3D"width:63.0pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .7=
5pt .75pt;
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r=3D"#333333" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Ari=
al;color:#333333;
  font-weight:bold">P 206.272.5555</span></font></b><font color=3D"#1f497d"=
 face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p></=
o:p></span></font></p>
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<td width=3D"84" height=3D"12" style=3D"width:63.0pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .7=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:9.0pt"><b><font size=3D"1" colo=
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  font-weight:bold">F 206.272.5555</span></font></b><font color=3D"#1f497d"=
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<span style=3D"color:#333333">www.f5.com</span></font></a></span></font></b=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><font size=3D"2" color=
=3D"black" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Taho=
ma;color:windowtext;
font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" f=
ace=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:win=
dowtext">
 [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] <b><span style=3D"f=
ont-weight:bold">On Behalf Of
</span></b>Tony Bourke<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, February 18,=
 2010 2:11 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> [email protected]<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [load balancing=
] Re : SSL w/ PCI best practices<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><font size=3D"3" color=3D=
"black" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><font size=3D"3" color=3D=
"black" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Something=
 to keep in mind is that when last I checked (which was a bit ago) many SSL=
 providers do require you to purchase an additional
 *license* for each server on the back end for a given cert, even if you're=
 using a self-signed cert behind the load balancer or not re-encrypting.&nb=
sp; On a purely technical level, you only need one SSL certificate, but on =
a licensing level, many CAs licenses
 require you purchase an additional license for each server.&nbsp; Got thre=
e servers and a pair of load balancers?&nbsp; You need to buy one cert and =
two additional licenses.&nbsp;&nbsp; So be sure to check your SSL providers=
 licenses.
<br>
<br>
How this translates into VMs, Multi-cores, etc., I'm not sure. <br>
<br>
Tony<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
<br>
On 2/18/2010 11:28 AM, Surya ARBY wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<table class=3D"MsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=
=3D"0" width=3D"624" style=3D"width:6.5in;margin-left:.5in">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign=3D"top" style=3D"padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;font-style:inherit;font=
-variant:
  inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-size:inherit;line-height:inherit;font-si=
ze-adjust: inherit;
  font-stretch: inherit;-x-system-font: none">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"inherit"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit">Hello David.<br>
<br>
Some examples :<br>
<br>
- you can use self signed certificates on the server side, while you have o=
nly one public certificate on your SSL accelerator<br>
<br>
- you can leverage TCP reuse / http multiplexing / SSL reuse to reduce the =
number of SSL handshakes on the server side even if some entities on the cl=
ient side do not support it.<br>
<br>
- using a SSL hardware card (only one) in the LB is far more scalable than =
processing all the SSL load in software on the servers (you can put SSL car=
ds in the servers too but byuing SSL cards for each servers can become quit=
e expensive :) )<br>
<br>
- you can use different ciphers on the front end and the back end (for exam=
ple : AES / sha1 on the client side, RC4&#43;md5 on the server side) to red=
uce the load on the servers<br>
<br>
etc...<br>
<br>
regards,<br>
<br>
Surya<br>
<br>
--- En date de&nbsp;: <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Jeu 18.2.10, <st1=
:PersonName w:st=3D"on">
Van <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">Ceylon</st1:plac=
e></st1:country-region>, David</st1:PersonName>
<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic"><a href=3D"mailto:David.VanCeylon@qwes=
t.com">&lt;[email protected]&gt;</a></span></i></span></b> a =E9cri=
t&nbsp;:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"3" colo=
r=3D"black" face=3D"inherit"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:in=
herit"><br>
De: <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Van <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on"><st1:pl=
ace w:st=3D"on">Ceylon</st1:place></st1:country-region>, David</st1:PersonN=
ame>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">&lt;[email protected]&=
gt;</a><br>
Objet: [load balancing] SSL w/ PCI best practices<br>
=C0: &quot;'<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Load Balancing Mailing List</st1:Pe=
rsonName>'&quot; <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">
&lt;[email protected]&gt;</a><br>
Date: Jeudi 18 f=E9vrier 2010, 20h00<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div id=3D"yiv1752802633">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Hello &#8211;
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">I have a question regarding the use of SSL=
 while trying to maintain PCI compliance. &nbsp;If
 a load balancer/SSL accelerator is handling SSL, what advantage is that in=
 terms of SSL offload if we must re-encrypt back to the servers?&nbsp; This=
 essentially limits the load balancer to URI inspection and distributing tr=
affic.&nbsp; There seems to be no advantage
 to handling Certs (other than wildcard) or de-encryption. &nbsp;Forgive my=
 ignorance but I&#8217;m looking for basic best practices in this situation=
.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Thanks!</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">David VanCeylon</span></font><o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"inherit"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</font></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><font=
 size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"inherit"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0p=
t;font-family:inherit">
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</span></font></div>
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  7.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:gray">This communication is the property of=
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e=3D"inherit"><span style=3D"font-family:inherit"><o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
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r=3D"black" face=3D"inherit"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:in=
herit"><br>
-----La pi=E8ce jointe associ=E9e suit-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"inherit"><s=
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oad Balancing Digest<br>
<a href=3D"http://lbwiki.com" target=3D"_blank">http://lbwiki.com</a> Load =
Balancing Wiki<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;mar=
gin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in">
<font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Co=
urier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font>=
</pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Co=
urier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font>=
</pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Co=
urier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">_______________________________=
________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Co=
urier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">lb-l mailing list<o:p></o:p></s=
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urier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt"><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]=
t">[email protected]</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Co=
urier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt"><a href=3D"http://vegan.net/mai=
lman/listinfo/lb-l">http://vegan.net/mailman/listinfo/lb-l</a><o:p></o:p></=
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<pre style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Co=
urier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Searchable Archive: <a href=3D"=
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an></font></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Co=
urier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt"><a href=3D"http://lbdigest.com"=
>http://lbdigest.com</a> Load Balancing Digest<o:p></o:p></span></font></pr=
e>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Co=
urier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt"><a href=3D"http://lbwiki.com">h=
ttp://lbwiki.com</a> Load Balancing Wiki<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Co=
urier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font=
></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><font size=3D"3" color=3D=
"black" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<br>
<hr>
<font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"Gray" size=3D"1">This communication is the pr=
operty of Qwest and may contain confidential or<br>
privileged information. Unauthorized use of this communication is strictly<=
br>
prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication<br>
in error, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail and destroy<=
br>
all copies of the communication and any attachments.<br>
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