RE: [AM] Digest for [email protected], issue 1109
debhart <[email protected]> Fri, 26 Mar 2004 07:43:38 -0500
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.programming.modeling.agile |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D **** Bounces like rubber! Shatters like ceramic! **** Discover Crazy Aaron's Thinking Putty in grown up=20 handfuls. It's the creativity unleashing, mood enhancing=20 desk toy! http://click.topica.com/= caab4CEbUrKDAbWnbtka/ Crazy Aaron Enterprises =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D do you have another gig already? -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 6:52 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Digest for [email protected], issue 1109 -- Topica Digest -- Let's call a spade a spade By [email protected] Article in Intelligent Enterprise magazine regarding Agile Methodologies By [email protected] Re: Article in Intelligent Enterprise magazine regarding Agile Methodologi By [email protected] Re: Article in Intelligent Enterprise magazine regarding Agile Methodologi= By [email protected] RE: Article in Intelligent Enterprise magazine regarding Agile Methodologi= By [email protected] ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 23:02:19 -0500 From: "Deborah Hartmann" <[email protected]> Subject: Let's call a spade a spade Non sequitur... my comment below -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 6:49 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Digest for [email protected], issue 1108 ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 06:51:49 -0500 From: "J. B. Rainsberger" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [AM] Why Traceability? > ... When a client or employer > doesn't want to work that way, I look for a quick exit. > I have been abl= e to feed my family so far. JB: thanks for sharing this honest viewpoint. It's taken out of context here, because I'm more interested in the sentiment than the discussion it comes from, I hope that's ok. Here's my take on the same subject: We need to remember this in the Agile community, because Agile is about Values: Where an organisation or client *mandates* non-agile practices one needs to accept being non-agile in that area, or get out and do something more satisfying. The third option must be resisted: incorporating non-agile= or anti-agile practices *and* calling it Agile. This is confusing and not satisfying: it weakens the effectiveness of Agile's inspect-and-adapt cycle= . One's Agile efforts will be handicapped - as the team limps along, wonderin= g why "it hurts when I do /this/", wondering why Agile is not working, we giv= e Agile a bad name and make our teams unhappy. Let's be honest and own up to the practices we are using - by choice or economic necessity. Compromises are sometimes necessary, we have all seen this and know it exists. But let's not try to twist Agile to incorporate or= compensate for these compromises. So, if it's not Agile, don't try to sugar= coat it and call it Agile. Call it a hybrid. Call it "on our way". Or get out - as JB mentions. This is an honest approach, and seems to be satisfying to JB and others I know. That's important. Well, for many of us,= job satisfaction is important. Personally, I'm happy to be *more agile* every month... it's an organic growth thing, but then I have a long fuse. Over time, we try to replace the= next thing that hurts the work the most with an Agile practice... if it's where the team hurts most, there is more motivation to accept the change. Who cares if we're not 100% Agile today? Next week? As long as it's sufficiently satisfying in terms of what you value. It is for me. For now. We'll see next month. There's always the door. :-) deb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 23:09:30 EST From: [email protected] Subject: Article in Intelligent Enterprise magazine regarding Agile Methodologies -------------------------------1080274169 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, all. I'd be interested in your responses to the article entitled "Popularity Contest" in Intelligent Enterprise magazine. It provides a capsule sketch o= f the comments I hear whenever the subject of agile methodologies comes up at man= y of the software development-related events here in Silicon Valley. I'm sure that this is something with which many of you have had to contend.= While I personally don't agree with many of his conclusions, I would appreciate some feedback from the members of this forum. The article may be accessed on-line at: http://www.intelligententerprise.com/020628/511e_business1_2.jhtml Thanks for your views. Regards, Pete -------------------------------1080274169 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <HTML><HEAD> <META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"> <DIV>Hello, all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd be interested in your responses to the article entitled "Popularit= y Contest" in Intelligent Enterprise magazine. It provides a capsule sketch o= f the comments I hear whenever the subject of agile methodologies comes up at= many of the software development-related events here in Silicon Valley. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sure that this is something with which many of you have had to contend. While I personally don't agree with many of his conclusions, I would appreciate some feedback from the members of this= forum. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The article may be accessed on-line at: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href=3D"http://www.intelligententerprise.com/020628/511e_business1_2.jhtml"= >ht tp://www.intelligententerprise.com/020628/511e_business1_2.jhtml</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for your views.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pete</DIV></BODY></HTML> -------------------------------1080274169-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 22:14:37 -0700 From: Norman Lorrain <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [AM] Article in Intelligent Enterprise magazine regarding Agil= e Methodologies I would jump on the comment "A software engineering project should resemble a good civil engineering project" No, no, no. Why should it? Why are some so insistent on shoehorning software engineering into a civil engineering paradigm? Humanity has been building bridges for millenia, but software for only decades. It's a dumb analogy. No one ever says that writing a novel, or that creating a recipe, or writing a song, is like building a bridge. Reminds me of an engineering prof. I once had. He said that the engineering disciplines could be summarised by their equations: civil: Sum(Forces) =3D 0 mechanical: Force =3D mass x acceleration electrical: Schroedinger's equation: http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/SchroedingerEquation.html The implication was that Electrical Engineering towered above all other disciplines... Of course, software development is even more involved, because we're not constrained by the laws of physics. Way more degrees of freedom. Another quote: "The goal of software engineering in the future should be to be as successful and as repeatable as any other engineering science" I'm not so sure that repeatability is of any use. I know thats the holy grail for many in QA and CMM advocates, but really, what does repeatability buy us? If MS lost the source code to Word, would we expect them to recreate it exactly? Bugs and all? Maybe I'm misinterpreting the term. If you're talking to someone who's looking for an analogy to engineering, I woud point them to Poppendiecks book. I like how they compare the software development process to control engineering - but don't get confused, in this case the *process* is itself a control system - it's all about feedback. In the traditional methologies, there isn't nearly as much feedback, and perhaps thats why we've see so many failures in the past decades. In agile methods, if a practice isn't proving its worth in providing feedback to the developers, its considered waste. The Poppendiecks point out that elimination of waste is paramount in the Toyota Production System, a modern and very successful engineering process. [email protected] wrote: > > I'd be interested in your responses to the article entitled > "Popularity Contest" in Intelligent Enterprise magazine. It provides a > capsule sketch of the comments I hear whenever the subject of agile > methodologies comes up at many of the software development-related > events here in Silicon Valley. > > > > http://www.intelligententerprise.com/020628/511e_business1_2.jhtml > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 01:01:49 EST From: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AM] Article in Intelligent Enterprise magazine regarding Agil= e Methodologi -------------------------------1080280909 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/25/2004 9:15:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes: I would jump on the comment "A software engineering project should resemble a good civil engineering project" Hear, hear! That's the issue I think most people who have seen or experienced an agile project seize on almost universally: the bridge building analogy. Whenever = I hear it, I am reminded of the reason it took so long to remove he traffic bottleneck at the point at which Alum Rock (I think...) crosses Highway 101= in San Jose (The Capital of Silicon Valley): The overpass was constructd of about = a zillion tons of concrete all the way down to bedrock, so it was too difficult to dismantle. Hmmm. that does sound like some of the application systems I've had to go in and clean up! Thanks for your comments. Regards, Pete -------------------------------1080280909 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <HTML><HEAD> <META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"> <DIV> <DIV>In a message dated 3/25/2004 9:15:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue= 2px solid"><FONT face=3DArial>I would jump on the comment<BR>"A software engineering project should resemble a good civil engineering <BR>project"</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <DIV>Hear, hear!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's the issue I think most people who have seen or experienced an agile project seize on almost universally: the bridge building analogy. Whenever I hear it, I am reminded of the reason it took so long to remove he traffic bottleneck at the point at which Alum Rock (= I think...) crosses Highway 101 in San Jose (The Capital of Silicon Valley): The overpass was constructd of about a zillion tons of concrete al= l the way down to bedrock, so it was too difficult to dismantle. Hmmm. that does sound like some of the application systems I've had to go in and clean up!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for your comments.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pete</DIV></BODY></HTML> -------------------------------1080280909-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 12:29:21 +0100 From: "David Robrecht" <[email protected]> Subject: RE: [AM] Article in Intelligent Enterprise magazine regarding Agil= e Methodologi This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C41325.95848838 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would loke to jump on the same comment comment "A software engineering project should resemble a good civil engineering project" Creating softwar= e involves the same steps as other industries, the problem with the analogy i= s the mapping of the phases. In Belgium all bridges and tunnels are considere= d works of art. Somebody has made a design and then is was build. (not straight away) Cars are designed first and constructed later. To me all software engineering activities before compiling are design activities. I= think software creation teams resemble advertising agencies, design departments of car manufacturers, animation movie makers. Why not make the next analogy: Developer =3D Animator Functional analyst =3D Scenarist Archi= tect =3D Director Project manager =3D Producer. Note that I have not said or implied anything about maintenance or other very relevant and expensive activities. I only think designing software has nothing to to with the construction of bridges. Robrect DAVID [email protected] -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Norman Lorrain [mailto:[email protected]] Verzonden: vr 26/03/2004 6:14 Aan: [email protected] CC: Onderwerp: Re: [AM] Article in Intelligent= Enterprise magazine regarding Agile Methodologi =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Are you looking for savings on products you use everyday? Visit Quality Health today and see the coupons, free samples and special offers our members enjoy each an= d everyday. http://click.topica.com/caab3ozbUrKDAb7rRdIa/ Ivo Interactive =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D I would jump on the comment "A software engineering project should resemble a good civi= l engineering project" No, no, no. Why should it? Why are some so insistent on shoehorning software engineering into a civil engineering paradigm? Humanity has been building bridges for millenia, but software for only decades. It's a dumb analogy. No one ever says that writing a= novel, or that creating a recipe, or writing a song, is like building a bridge. Reminds me of an engineering prof. I once had. He said that the= engineering disciplines could be summarised by their equations: civil:= Sum(Forces) =3D 0 mechanical: Force =3D mass x acceleration electrical: Schroedinger's equation: http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/SchroedingerEquation.html The implication was that Electrical Engineering towered above all other disciplines... Of course, software development is even more involved, because we're not constrained by the laws of physics. Way more degrees of= freedom. Another quote: "The goal of software engineering in th= e future should be to be as successful and as repeatable as any other engineering science" I'm not so sure that repeatability is of any use. I know thats the holy grail for many in QA and CMM advocates, but really, what does repeatability buy us? If MS lost the source code to Word, would= we expect them to recreate it exactly? Bugs and all? Maybe I'm misinterpreting the term. If you're talking to someone who's looking for= an analogy to engineering, I woud point them to Poppendiecks book. I like= how they compare the software development process to control engineering -= but don't get confused, in this case the *process* is itself a control system - it's all about feedback. In the traditional methologies, there isn't nearly as much feedback, and perhaps thats why we've see so many failures in the past decades. In agile methods, if a practice isn't proving its worth in providing feedback to the developers, its considered waste. The Poppendiecks point out that elimination of waste is paramount in the Toyota Production System, a modern and very successful engineering process. [email protected] wrote: > > I'd be interested= in your responses to the article entitled > "Popularity Contest" in Intelligent Enterprise magazine. It provides a > capsule sketch of the comments I hear whenever the subject of agile > methodologies comes up at many of the software development-related > events here in Silicon Valley. > > > > http://www.intelligententerprise.com/020628/511e_business1_2.jhtml > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Menthol Smokers Only! Click on the link below and register to receive up to $50 in savings= from one of America's leading menthol brands. http://click.topica.com/caab4S3bUrKDAb7rRdIf/ Lorillard =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C41325.95848838 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name=3D"winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhYLAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBYA= D AA4AAADUBwMAGgAMAB0AFQAFADsBASCAAwAOAAAA1AcDABoADAAdABUABQA7AQEJgAEAIQAAADU= w NEJGQzJCRDUzMjRBNERBMUM1ODVDOUEyNzU2Qjc5AD0HAQOQBgDkIgAAOAAAAB8AGgABAAAAEgA= A AEkAUABNAC4ATgBvAHQAZQAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAAAfADcAAQAAAKAAAABSAEUAOgAgAFsAQQBNAF0= A IABBAHIAdABpAGMAbABlACAAaQBuACAASQBuAHQAZQBsAGwAaQBnAGUAbgB0ACAARQBuAHQAZQB= y 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[email protected] digest, issue 1109 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Menthol Smokers Only! Click on the link below and=20 register to receive up to $50 in savings from one of=20 America's leading menthol brands.=20 http://click.topica.com/= caab4S3bUrKDAbWnbtkf/ Lorillard =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.ag= ilemodeling.com --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: = [email protected] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bUrKDA.= bWnbtk.= Z2NtYS1h Or send an email to: [email protected] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=3DTEXFOOTER --^----------------------------------------------------------------