Re: Using V8 for other languages

Hi,

> It's generally a good idea to pick some external VM and built on top
> of it - less work, more power, more compatibility with other
> languages.

When you build on top of some architecture you must consider
 obsolescence factors.
From Java up today, all platforms has been discarded
 and speed of changes has been increased in the last decade.
The recent history confirm that it will continue happening.

IMHO, a better idea is to do not have a VM;
 e.g. make all operations requiered to build aplications
 in practice (and not in "abstract") manageable by the system itself
 (the system modeled in OO way or not... the same applies).

Changing to another semantics can be good for someone
 that think that he has nothing to loose (e.g. someone too young
 in the industry); or for someone with very "special" needs;
 it si not something good to promote for "all the word"
 (as was done repeatedly by M$ and other recent companies
 selling that something will happen this year :)

In practice, using well known semantics (e.g. smalltalk semantics)
 let companies do not loose investment in education (new
 companies and companies that use resources of others
 do not have possibility to loose, and has the freedom
 to try and waste one to 5 years, upto the next version
 of a new "refactored" concept :-)

Returning to the no-VM proposal...
Smalltalk is not a LOO, and it is not a VM design,
 it is a system that can be changed at any place
 (identity is preserved, Smalltalk is NOT it's contents
 at a point in time; it is the flow of contents in a sustainable
 system through time and guided by external actions
 -e.g. human actions-)

In the past, most architectures supporting smalltalk systems
 was designed minimizing the primitive operations
 but the VM itself was implemented outside (unmanegeable by)
 the system because dynamic generation of low-level behavior
 was not possible.
Today, there is more power for dynamic generation
 of low-level efficient code; and exists the posibility
 to reduce the (Smalltalk)VM to minimal expression,
 putting most of the operations relegated to the VM
 in the past as responsibility of objects in the system.

e.g. It was frecuent, in smalltalk that lookUp and
 evaluate operations was solved in one stage as one VM
 operation and objects can=B4t refine/change the VM behavior.
In recent object models desings[*], new implementations
 of object architectures where basic operations (responsibility
 of "the VM" in the past) managed by objects in the system
 are emerging; we have the posibility to extend/refine/change
 any basic behavior WITHOUT loosing robust tools
 for systems development...

If we do a good work from any Smalltalk platform
 removing the VM as much as possible, it will continue
 been a Smalltalk and companies that have invested a lot
 in the past, promoting and using smalltalk, will not be
 forced to return to languages... (nor move to
 "scripting" languages)

I know that the paragraphs put here can be void for
 someone young (focused in his/her future and not
 in what he/she has already done), but I also know that
 not all people/companies are happy about loosing their
 investments... again.

w/best regards,
Ale.

p.d.: I have copied to Smalltalking list because we use
 to talk about this topics, but in Spanish; and I am interested
 in reflecting about how we feel when "new" alternatives
 are proposed for all-the-world ignoring peculiarities
 of people using marginal development alternatives as Smalltalk.

[*] See objectsAsMethods proposal for Squeak (1999?)
 available at current Squeak implementation and Moebius
 project ( http://groups.google.com/group/moebius-project-discussion?hl=3De=
n )




----- Original Message -----=20
From: "pako" <[email protected]>
To: "Strongtalk-general" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 6:50 AM
Subject: Re: Using V8 for other languages


>
> It's generally a good idea to pick some external VM and built on top
> of it - less work, more power, more compatibility with other
> languages.
> But using VM desgined with one language in mind - there should be
> strong reasons for that.
> How about Parrot VM? Dynamic languages designers is their target
> audience.
> And V8  is (for now) aimed at browser developers only.
> >
>=20



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