Re: [testdrivendevelopment] "I think the community needs more explicit direction...."

Hi all,

Spontaneously I would guess there is a difference in experience between=20
us trying to learn TDD with 5-10 years or more of programming experience=
=20
and loads of examples of why it was necessary, compared to people=20
learning it today that (I hope) learn it earlier since TDD is not really=
=20
new any more. I would also guess/hope that TDD now reach a broader range=
=20
of people than those actively searching for ways to improve.

Regards,
//Samuel

On 2019-11-23 19:32, J. B. Rainsberger wrote:
> I would like to amplify Avi's comment below.
>=20
> I have noticed something when programmers try to practise TDD: they=20
> don't seem to learn how to refactor. I don't mean to state this so=20
> harshly, but it seems that they struggle a lot more with refactoring=20
> than I did when I started. I have this feeling that "we" learned=20
> relatively quickly compared to what I see, even comparing myself=20
> programming in Java in 1999-2002 to today's programmer also working with=
=
=20
> Java. And today's Java programmers have better libraries and better=20
> tools! They use IDEA and Vavr, but I had Eclipse and plain Java. :)
>=20
> I'd like to know your impressions. Which kinds of problems do people=20
> have when they try to learn how to refactor? When they learn how to=20
> guide a design to evolve? Why does it seem like they have more=20
> difficulty learning this than "we" had?
>=20
> I admit that I probably have some strong cognitive distortion. That's=20
> why I'm asking this question.
>=20
> Cheers,
> --=20
> J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: https://tdd.training :: http://www.jbrains.ca=
=
=20
> :: http://www.thecodewhisperer.com
>=20
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: *Avi Kessner* <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Date: Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 5:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [testdrivendevelopment] We are back on the air!
> To: <[email protected]=20
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
>=20
>=20
> Is this the diagram you wanted to share?
>=20
> https://osherove.com/blog/2019/11/12/an-updated-diagram-of-the-tdd-proce=
ss-from-the-upcoming-3rd-edition-of-art-of-unit-testing
>=20
> I would recommend making a box which is part of the flow rather than=20
> some external dotted lines. For example, maybe the box should read, "=20
> Apply SOLID principles" as part of the refactoring, and then before the=
=20
> next failing test have something like, "design the contract"
>=20
> I think the community needs more explicit direction on the design being=
=20
> done in those phases.
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> On Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 16:44 J. B. Rainsberger <[email protected]=20
> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>=20
>     On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 11:27 AM Roy Osherove <[email protected]
>     <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>=20
>         Awesome.=C2=A0 I sent a new thread to the group about tdd diagra=
ms.=20
>         Was it received?
>=20
>=20
>     Maybe.
>=20
>     If you sent it to the Yahoo! group, then no.
>=20
>     Please try again--at least until we figure out the transition. :) I
>     want to see it!
>     --=20
>     J. B. (Joe) Rainsberger :: https://tdd.training ::
>     http://www.jbrains.ca :: http://www.thecodewhisperer.com
>=20
>=20
>=20


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