Re: [testdrivendevelopment] "I think the community needs more explicit direction...."
"Charles Gallo" <[email protected]> Mon, 25 Nov 2019 09:02:49 -0500
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.programming.test-driven-development |
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| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--Apple-Mail-0F94AF92-928D-405C-AF4D-D12ED13E2EA9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As I said, I was let go for not succeeding with them, so no longer my circu= s. My impression ranged from =E2=80=9Cwants to learn, but busy=E2=80=9D (acce= pted the paper) to =E2=80=9Cit is a paycheck =E2=80=9C =E2=80=94 Charlie 73 de KG2V > On Nov 25, 2019, at 8:06 AM, Jeanne Petrangelo <[email protected]> w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > =E2=80=9CHow do you mentor 20 somethings when they won't READ, even shor= t stuff=E2=80=9D >=20 > I have a 19yo son going to college for software engineering, and he does= n=E2=80=99t like to read. He prefers videos. It is frustrating. We tried po= inting out that vast swaths of information in the world is written down and= if he doesn=E2=80=99t learn to ingest information that way, then he=E2=80= =99s cutting himself off from that info. Reasoning hadn=E2=80=99t motivate= d him enough; it=E2=80=99s too abstract. But you have a specific case. Do y= ou get the sense these 20 somethings want to learn, or are they happy enoug= h with the way things are? Maybe starting with goal setting so they underst= and =E2=80=9Cwhy=E2=80=9D and what=E2=80=99s in it for them, first? >=20 >> On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 1:03 AM Charles Gallo <[email protected]> w= rote: >> Steve (et al) >> So here is the real question I have >> I've gotten older, and it seems out of touch with a lot of the younger= =20 >> developers >>=20 >> I was brought in to mentor them on this stuff, refactoring, TDD etc (an= d=20 >> of course get out code, setup CD/CI etc etc - of course all at the same= = =20 >> time ASAP) >>=20 >> How do you mentor 20 somethings when they won't READ, even short stuff >>=20 >> I tried to get them interested in "Brownfield Development" - Or=20 >> Feathers, etc - and even when you hand them something as small as a=20 >> partial chapter, or a simple write-up, you get blown off that they don'= t=20 >> read (and this is management, as well as the Jr developers) >>=20 >> I've noticed at the last couple of places. One place - Give them the= =20 >> basic instructions for GIT/TortoiseGIT, no one can be bothered to read= =20 >> it, and one culprit (the CEO no less) would cowboy code, have it on his= = =20 >> PC, not in any source control, and yell when you can't get things to=20 >> work (the only semi working copy of the web site source was on his=20 >> laptop) >>=20 >> I don't understand how to get through to these folks anymore >>=20 >> Trying to get them to understand WHY you TDD - Why you can't get CI/CD= =20 >> setup on a legacy project in a week (all manual builds off a developers= = =20 >> PC, with no tests run, even though there were tests) >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On 2019-11-24 19:49, Steven Smith wrote: >> > Autocorrect: yeah->teach >> >=20 >> >=20 >> >> On Nov 24, 2019, at 19:48, Steven Smith via Groups.Io=20 >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>=20 >> >> =EF=BB=BFI yeah refactoring a lot, and I think practice helps (shock= ing, I=20 >> >> know). I include it in my workshops as well as in free resources on = my=20 >> >> github (https://github.com/ardalis/kata-catalog). I also have three= =20 >> >> different Pluralsight courses on refactoring, including the monster = 8=20 >> >> hour course Refactoring Fundamentals. Anyone can access these with a= = =20 >> >> trial account and most enterprise shops I talk to have subscriptions= = =20 >> >> for their folks. >> >>=20 >> >> But to JB=E2=80=99s point, I do think it=E2=80=99s a part of TDD tha= t newer devs lack=20 >> >> confidence and probably skill to perform, at least until they gain= =20 >> >> experience with it. >> >>=20 >> >> Steve >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#35768): https://groups.io/g/testdrivendevelopment/mess= age/35768 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/61850834/3268755 Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/testdrivendevelopment/leave/6156322/74455= 6386/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- --Apple-Mail-0F94AF92-928D-405C-AF4D-D12ED13E2EA9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset= = =3Dutf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">As I said, I was let go for not succee= ding with them, so no longer my circus.<div>My impression ranged from =E2= =80=9Cwants to learn, but busy=E2=80=9D (accepted the paper) to =E2=80=9Ci= t is a paycheck =E2=80=9C<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">=E2=80=94 <div>Char= lie</div><div>73 de KG2V</div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type= =3D"cite">On Nov 25, 2019, at 8:06 AM, Jeanne Petrangelo <jeanne@petran= gelo.org> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><di= v dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div><div dir=3D"auto">=E2=80=9CHow do you mentor 20= somethings when they won't READ, even short stuff=E2=80=9D</div></div><div= dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I have a 19yo son going to colleg= e for software engineering, and he doesn=E2=80=99t like to read. He prefers= videos. It is frustrating. We tried pointing out that vast swaths of infor= mation in the world is written down and if he doesn=E2=80=99t learn to inge= st information that way, then he=E2=80=99s cutting himself off from that in= fo. Reasoning hadn=E2=80=99t motivated him enough; it=E2=80=99s too abstrac= t. But you have a specific case. Do you get the sense these 20 somethings w= ant to learn, or are they happy enough with the way things are? Maybe start= ing with goal setting so they understand =E2=80=9Cwhy=E2=80=9D and what=E2= =80=99s in it for them, first?</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d= iv dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 1:03 AM Charles= Gallo <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</= a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 = 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Steve (et al)<br> So here is the real question I have<br> I've gotten older, and it seems out of touch with a lot of the younger <br= > developers<br> <br> I was brought in to mentor them on this stuff, refactoring, TDD etc (and <= br> of course get out code, setup CD/CI etc etc - of course all at the same <b= r> time ASAP)<br> <br> How do you mentor 20 somethings when they won't READ, even short stuff<br> <br> I tried to get them interested in "Brownfield Development" - Or <br> Feathers, etc - and even when you hand them something as small as a <br> partial chapter, or a simple write-up, you get blown off that they don't <= br> read (and this is management, as well as the Jr developers)<br> <br> I've noticed at the last couple of places. One place - Give them the= <br> basic instructions for GIT/TortoiseGIT, no one can be bothered to read <br= > it, and one culprit (the CEO no less) would cowboy code, have it on his <b= r> PC, not in any source control, and yell when you can't get things to <br> work (the only semi working copy of the web site source was on his <br> laptop)<br> <br> I don't understand how to get through to these folks anymore<br> <br> Trying to get them to understand WHY you TDD - Why you can't get CI/CD <br= > setup on a legacy project in a week (all manual builds off a developers <b= r> PC, with no tests run, even though there were tests)<br> <br> <br> <br> On 2019-11-24 19:49, Steven Smith wrote:<br> > Autocorrect: yeah->teach<br> > <br> > <br> >> On Nov 24, 2019, at 19:48, Steven Smith via Groups.Io <br> >> <ssmith.lists=3D<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target= =3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br> >> <br> >> =EF=BB=BFI yeah refactoring a lot, and I think practice helps (sh= ocking, I <br> >> know). I include it in my workshops as well as in free resources = on my <br> >> github (<a href=3D"https://github.com/ardalis/kata-catalog" rel= =3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/ardalis/kata-catalog<= /a>). I also have three <br> >> different Pluralsight courses on refactoring, including the monst= er 8 <br> >> hour course Refactoring Fundamentals. Anyone can access these wit= h a <br> >> trial account and most enterprise shops I talk to have subscripti= ons <br> >> for their folks.<br> >> <br> >> But to JB=E2=80=99s point, I do think it=E2=80=99s a part of TDD = that newer devs lack <br> >> confidence and probably skill to perform, at least until they gai= n <br> >> experience with it.<br> >> <br> >> Steve<br> <br> <br> <br> </blockquote></div></div> </div></blockquote></div></body></html> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> <hr> Groups.io Links:<p> You receive all messages sent to this group. <p> <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/g/testdrivendevelopment/mes= sage/35768">View/Reply Online (#35768)</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subj= ect=3DRe:%20Re%3A%20%5Btestdrivendevelopment%5D%20%22I%20think%20the%20comm= unity%20needs%20more%20explicit%20direction....%22">Reply To Group</a> | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3D= Private:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Btestdrivendevelopment%5D%20%22I%20think%20the%2= 0community%20needs%20more%20explicit%20direction....%22">Reply To Sender</a= > | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/mt/61850834/3268755">Mu= te This Topic</a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/testdrivendevelopment/post">New Topic</a>= <br> <br> <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/testdrivendevelopment/editsub/3268755">Your= Subscription</a> | <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Contact Group Own= er</a> | <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/testdrivendevelopment/leave/6156322/7445563= 86/xyzzy">Unsubscribe</a> [[email protected]]<br> <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> --Apple-Mail-0F94AF92-928D-405C-AF4D-D12ED13E2EA9--