Re: [pypy-dev] Re: [Numpy-discussion] Better compatibility of the Python scientific/data stack with fast Python interpreters

Thanks Matti for this interesting and sad piece of news.

I also reply on [email protected] since your message was not post on this list and take the opportunity to signal another important post about his subject on discuss.python.org by Stepan Sindelar:

https://discuss.python.org/t/c-api-working-group-and-plan-to-get-a-python-c-api-compatible-with-alternative-python-implementations/89477/19

IMHO, anyone interested in the long term future of Python should be aware of these issues.

Pierre

----- Mail original -----
> De: "matti picus via hpy-dev" <[email protected]>
> À: "PyPy Developer Mailing List" <[email protected]>, "Ralf Gommers" <[email protected]>, "hpy-dev"
> <[email protected]>
> Envoyé: Vendredi 2 Mai 2025 10:05:51
> Objet: [hpy-dev] Re: [pypy-dev] Re: [Numpy-discussion] Better compatibility of the Python scientific/data stack with
> fast Python interpreters

> On Wed, Apr 30, 2025 at 3:30 PM Michał Górny <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I'd like to just add a few data points from my Gentoo experience.
>> ...
>> I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're referring to.  Sure, PyPy
>> is not moving fast, but it definitely isn't dead.  Sure, it sucks that
>> we're still stuck in Python 3.11 era, but that doesn't make PyPy EOL.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Michał Górny
>>
> 
> It does not appear there will be a PyPy 3.12. When NumPy drops support
> for Python3.11 (Jan 2026), future versions based on the CPython C-API
> will defacto no longer be relevant for PyPy3.11.  However, if HPy
> succeeds, there is a chance that a NumPy "universal" HPy wheel will
> still work on PyPy 3.11, as the API will be abstracted away from a
> direct connection with the CPython C-API. This is one of the
> attractions of HPy, that puts it in a different category than Cython
> or nanobind: universal HPy binaries can run on any python interpreter
> or version that supports the abstracted API.
> 
> With the current level of active contributions to PyPy, I am not
> convinced we can help making HPy a reality, even though it is a very
> well thought out solution to once and for all detaching third party
> libraries from a tight integration with the CPython C-API. I agree HPy
> would be advantageous to both the CPython core team and package
> maintainers. The yearly churn of packages needing to update for new
> CPython C-API would be localized in the HPy layer for the new CPython
> (similar to Cython, nanobind, and PyO3), and the CPython maintainers
> would be free to change more aspects of the CPython internals that
> unintentionally impact the external C-API (which differentiates HPy
> from Cython, nanobind, and PyO3). But not all good ideas get to win
> out and become the popular, goto solution. PyPy itself is an example
> that, unfortunately.
> Matti
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