Re: Reverse EEG

Hi Bosjan,

If we only consider the risk factor, then you are right that we should use,
for example, Neurofeedback rather than CES. However, I suppose most people
would consider risk-to-benefit ratio rather than just risk alone so I would
not rule out CES just like I would not rule out any other invasive
procedure with a low risk-to-benefit ratio.

Raymond Chan


On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 8:32 PM, Boštjan Barbiš <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Hi group,
>
> FDA acceptance or not, there are hazards connected with prolonged use of
> CES. Many take FDA approval as a way to go for many things, but forget
> about how complicated form of creations we are and try simplistically mess
> with everything.
>
> The fact CES is effective can be viewed as the way of statin drug being
> effective. I am asking at what expenses? Imo the safest rote to improve
> brain work is through gentle chelation and nutrition regimen, combined with
> mental training such as EEG biofeedback. Dealing with emotional traumas
> that stored some damage is imo a way to best and fastest results, meanwhile
> TES can be used for a fix some situations, but not cure...
>
> Hope this helps.
>
>
>
>
> 2014-07-23 14:17 GMT+02:00 Raymond Chan <[email protected]>:
>
>  Hi Chuck,
>>
>> I agree with you 100% that we cannot hope to simply take the kind of
>> reverse route that Nicolas Prat described to re-activate an EEG pattern by
>> applying voltages externally. And I agree with you 100% on the reasoning
>> why this reverse route is not possible.
>>
>> However, I do not agree with you that we should never apply a current to
>> the head. Cranial Electrotherapy Stimulators (CES) have existed in the
>> market for decades. The US FDA has been evaluating this modality for three
>> decades and finally agreed to classify these devices as Class II on June 12
>> this year because,
>>
>> quote,
>>
>> …(FDA) has determined that there is sufficient information to establish
>> special controls, and that these special controls, together with general
>> controls, will provide a reasonable assurance of safety and effectiveness
>> for CES devices…
>>
>> unquote.
>>
>> Refer to FDA Federal Register #33712.
>> Raymond Chan
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 10:50 PM, Charles Z Henry <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> See... this is dangerous.  You might spend time developing your idea,
>>> but it's almost certainly not worth your time.
>>>
>>> Do not apply currents to your head.  Period.  Currents in the brain
>>> are the flow of ions across membranes.  They are not the same as
>>> currents in conductors.
>>>
>>> You could not hope to re-activate a pattern by applying voltages
>>> externally.  The pattern of activation is essentially lost in
>>> transmission.  EEG voltages are the sum of small dipoles that develop
>>> across dendrites from billions of neurons.  You're going from a
>>> very-high dimensional space to a low-dimensional space.  You can't
>>> re-create the details of the high-dimensional space from a
>>> low-dimensional space. Brainwave entrainment is possible--and there
>>> are some safe methods.  However, you will get nowhere close to
>>> inducing a repeatable, recognizable pattern.  Stimulating an area of
>>> the brain does not re-create its activity.  The temporal and spatial
>>> resolution of patterns of activation is much finer than what you can
>>> re-create from outside of the skull.
>>>
>>> If you're really into this idea, you should study a lot of cognitive
>>> neuroscience papers to learn the roles of regions of the brain in
>>> cognition.  You can't re-create a pattern of activation externally,
>>> but it is possible to influence the functioning of some regions of the
>>> brain (stimulate or inhibit).  This is an experimental science and by
>>> no means completely understood.
>>>
>>> Chuck
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 9:09 PM, Nicolas Prat, PhD
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> > In fact, this is not magnetic but purely electrical. Voltage gets
>>> > conducted to the surface of the skull, registered by electrodes. The
>>> > reverse route applies voltage to the skull, which gets conducted to the
>>> > neurons and (this is the unknown part!) triggers a pattern that might
>>> be
>>> > recognized and (re)activated.
>>> > Seems like active electrodes are necessary for the recording phase and
>>> > passive for the playback part. 100mv at the skull both ways.
>>> >
>>> >
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