Re: Re: [owaspdallas] Re: [WEB SECURITY] RE: How to stop hackers at the root cause

I normally don't jump into these conversations as I read them for
information. I must say to you Keyboard Cowboy, I had always looked to
your posts as they usually have something of value in them, however I have
to agree with Paul Schmehl on this one. Well done Paul. Our profession
should never draw conclusions on any data unless it has been
well-screened, well-studied, and from trusted sources. That being said,
our profession should know better than drawing conclusions on "any" topic
unless we've studied it thoroughly lest we find ourselves in a position
that questions our integrity.

Don't take it as a bashing admonition Keyboard, just use this a way to
reflect on what/how you might have made the analogy differently.

Paul Summitt, CISSP

> --On Tuesday, April 13, 2010 15:21:26 -0700 "Arian J. Evans"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Keyboard Cowboy,
>>
>> Education is always a good thing. I think kids should have the
>> opportunity to
>> learn both sides of software security. Great suggestion.
>>
>> Kids, by nature, are drawn to things that are taboo and demonized. Which
>> hacking no doubt falls into, and according to Daniel, also Angelina
>> Jolie.
>>
>> We can find great analogies to the "hacker kids problem" in recent
>> studies
>> done on teenage behaviors:
>>
>> The Bible Belt, particularly evangelicals in the south, have the highest
>> rates of teen sex and pregnancy in the US. Telling kids to "abstain"
>> clearly
>> doesn't work as well as teaching them how things work, and in particular
>> careful education surrounding the use of safety devices. To the exact
>> point
>> you made in your blog.
>
> This is totally off topic, but I simply cannot let this slide.  People
> like to
> throw out canards like this as if they are facts, and seldom are they ever
> questioned.
>
> First of all, your assertion isn't borne out by the data.  Secondly,
> you've not
> cited a single study to back up your assertion, in particular the claim
> that
> the lack of sex education (which you assume occurs due to religious
> objections)
> is responsible for the claimed, but not factual, higher pregnancy rates.
>
> According to a study done by the Guttmacher Institute in 2000 [1] (The
> Guttmacher Institution is a pro-choice group that advocates for sex
> education),
> here are the state rankings by rates of pregnancy and rates of abortion
>
> 1) Nevada                      4
> 2) Arizona                    19
> 3) Mississippi                28
> 4) New Mexico              18
> 5) Texas                      26
> 6) Florida                      7
> 7) California                  5
> 8) Georgia                   22
> 9) North Carolina         17
> 10) Arkansas               41
> 11) Delaware                8
> 12) Hawaii                    6
>
> Of the top twelve states, only half are what could be considered Bible
> Belt
> states, so I think you have to look elsewhere for your explanation of teen
> pregnancy rates.  OTOH, it's pretty clear the Bible Belt states are
> significantly less likely to abort a teen pregnancy, which may or may not
> be an
> indicator of religious influence.  (I'm not prepared to say it is without
> data
> to support it.)
>
> About.com also has statistics about teen birth rates [2], and their
> statistics
> don't bear out your assertion either.  Their stats are based on the 2006
> Guttmacher Institute report, and the rankings have changed very little.
>
> States ranked by rates of pregnancy among women age 15-19 (pregnancies per
> thousand):
>
>    1. Nevada (113)
>    2. Arizona (104)
>    3. Mississippi (103)
>    4. New Mexico (103)
>    5. Texas (101)
>    6. Florida (97)
>    7. California (96)
>    8. Georgia (95)
>    9. North Carolina (95)
>   10. Arkansas (93)
>
> States ranked by rates of live births among women age 15-19 (births per
> thousand):
>
>    1. Mississippi (71)
>    2. Texas (69)
>    3. Arizona (67)
>    4. Arkansas (66)
>    5. New Mexico (66)
>    6. Georgia (63)
>    7. Louisiana (62)
>    8. Nevada (61)
>    9. Alabama (61)
>   10. Oklahoma (60)
>
> Again, the so-called "Bible Belt" doesn't demonstrate a propensity to get
> pregnant at any higher rates than other parts of the country but clearly
> bears
> those children to term at a higher rate than other areas.
>
> Furthermore, the most recent statistics from the government [3], while
> they do
> show a change in the rankings, still do not bear out your assertion that
> the
> Bible Belt, "particularly evangelicals in the south", have the highest
> teen
> pregnancy rates.  As I've shown birth rates do not equal pregnancy rates.
> You
> have to factor in abortions as well.
>
> You may well have been misled by MSNBC [4] (but then who hasn't been
> misled by
> MSNBC), because they recently reported a study that found a correlation
> between
> the Bible Belt and birth rates, but that study doesn't address pregnancy
> or
> abortion, so it's misleading.  The study also appears to be biased toward
> its
> conclusion by the failure to even consider pregnancy rates.  Birth rates
> are
> not an indicator of teen pregnancies.  They are an indicator of teen
> births,
> which may be an indicator of choices between abortion and bringing a baby
> to
> term that are based on religious factors, but I haven't found any data to
> support that conclusion.
>
> I would have preferred to use the CDC data, but their data takes a lot
> more
> work to extract than I had time for.  I suspect it would reveal the same
> (in
> general) information that the Guttmacher institute produced.
>
> [1]
> http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:2pauuI7VVBoJ:www.guttmacher.org/pubs/USTPtrends.pdf+statistics+on+teen+pregnancy+by+state&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjJ1Yt7cIlu5z8STulZhAV2cMQnBegPj0drpWSbOq47UR8qRmEv9XgUpJvXaDQik5-q_VqtvI4lGQ5CY_UUzzUFuVFyPu0l6o7casH7DIlOW5t7k4O5J_SFJgY6d5BtFBctb0V7&sig=AHIEtbQiPQuCASJ8Pe1yKqjPfd8vF4rKuA
>
> [2] http://womensissues.about.com/od/datingandsex/a/TeenPregStates.htm
>
> [3]
> http://health.usnews.com/health-news/articles/2009/01/08/teen-birthrates-where-does-your-state-rank.html
>
> [4] http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32884806/ns/health-kids_and_parenting/
>
> --
> Paul Schmehl, Senior Infosec Analyst
> As if it wasn't already obvious, my opinions
> are my own and not those of my employer.
> *******************************************
> "It is as useless to argue with those who have
> renounced the use of reason as to administer
> medication to the dead." Thomas Jefferson
>
>
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Paul Summitt, CISSP
IS/IT Consultant
727.698.6289 Cell



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