Source code, user exits
Ross Freeman <Ross.Freeman-wzDqe+/[email protected]>
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.systems.as400.mapics |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
Important clarification. There is a huge difference between source code access and user exits. User exits are available to all customers as before, licensing is not required. Our preferred method for all green screen modification is user exits, which are rampant throughout the system. Source code is the entire collection of RPG programs - that is the component that requires a license. All of these discussions are about source code licensing. Best Regards, Ross Freeman | Senior Product Manager | Infor | office: 678.319.8040 | mobile: 404.386.5684 | ross.freeman-wzDqe+/[email protected] Infor ERP XA InforFLEX-A clear, fast, and cost effective path to adopt Infor's latest product innovations. http://www.infor.com/flex -----Original Message----- From: mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] [mailto:mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected]] On Behalf Of mapics-l-request-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 12:30 PM To: mapics-l-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Subject: MAPICS-L Digest, Vol 7, Issue 150 Send MAPICS-L mailing list submissions to mapics-l-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/mapics-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to mapics-l-request-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] You can reach the person managing the list at mapics-l-owner-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of MAPICS-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Source code costs (Josh Diggs) 2. Re: Source code costs (Willie J. Moore) 3. Re: Source code costs (Otto Meyn) 4. Re: Source code costs (Sansi, Jim) 5. Re: Source code costs (Kevin Fox) 6. Re: Source code costs (Kevin Mann) 7. Registered User Licensing at XAR5.5 or below (Burns, Bryan) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- message: 1 date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 07:32:53 -0700 (PDT) from: Josh Diggs <JDiggs-7y5+ka1ulstWk0Htik3J/[email protected]> subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs I'm sorry, but this whole source code kerfuffle sounds like a tempest in a teapot. First, let's talk about personal responsibility. If your business is inextricably dependant on continued access to source code then you need to make sure that you have a valid contract stating that you have the access to said source. If you've taken that necessary step, then you can handle the situation with support, then escalate to management, then to the court system. Only at the last step is it really appropriate to publicly "bash" Inform. I've seen Inform personnel respond in a calm professional manner to this thread with what seem like entirely appropriate information. Additionally Ross's last post made it clear that the original poster has reasonably affordable access to source for at least long enough to get themselves out of the mess they are in. That sounds to me like Inform was very intentionally trying to bend their new source code policy to mitigate "the impact on the existing customer base". One of my high school teachers used to say "a failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part". All of that being said, I think that charging so damn much for source is a poor strategic choice, but that is Infar's decision to make. I think it is important to differentiate between what I see as Inform trying to shore up their revenue stream in order to continue this product line versus milking the remaining install base for a maximum of licensing fees before they kill off a dying product. If I thought that Infor was trying to "shaft" its' customers on the way out the door, I would be up in arms too, but I don't think that's what is happening. ------------------------------ message: 2 date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 07:44:23 -0700 (PDT) from: "Willie J. Moore" <WJMoore-7y5+ka1ulstWk0Htik3J/[email protected]> subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs One post would have been enough. William Moore California Fine Wire, Co [email protected] 805-489-5144 -----Original Message----- From: mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] [mailto:mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected]] On Behalf Of Josh Diggs Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:33 AM To: mapics-l-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs I'm sorry, but this whole source code kerfuffle sounds like a tempest in a teapot to me. First, let's talk about personal responsibility. If your business is inextricably dependant on continued access to source code then you need to make sure that you have a valid contract stating that you have the access to said source. If you've taken that necessary step, then you can handle the situation with support, then escalate to management, then to the court system. Only at the last step (maybe the last two) is it really appropriate to publicly "bash" Infor. I've seen Infor personnel respond in a calm professional manner to this thread with what seem like entirely appropriate information. Additionally Ross's last post made it clear that the original poster has reasonably affordable access to source for at least long enough to get themselves out of the mess they are in. That sounds to me like Infor was very intentionally trying to bend their new source code policy to mitigate "the impact on the existing customer base". One of my high school teachers used to say "a failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part". All of that being said, I think that charging so damn much for source is a poor strategic choice, but that is Infor's decision to make. I think it is important to differentiate between what I see as Infor trying to shore up their revenue stream in order to continue this product line versus milking the remaining install base for a maximum of licensing fees before they kill off a dying product. If I thought that Infor was trying to "shaft" its' customers on the way out the door, I would be up in arms too, but I don't think that's what is happening. I sure hope I'm right. _______________________________________________ This is the MAPICS ERP System Discussion (MAPICS-L) mailing list To post a message email: MAPICS-L-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/mapics-l or email: MAPICS-L-request-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives at http://archive.midrange.com/mapics-l. ------------------------------ message: 3 date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 11:08:04 -0400 from: "Otto Meyn" <meyno-KD3fYNZuIC/[email protected]> subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs I do not want the source code, have you really tried to read it. But Access to ALL Exit program source code should be allowed for anyone. I hope this has not been changed. -----Original Message----- From: mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] [mailto:mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected]] On Behalf Of Willie J. Moore Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 10:44 AM To: mapics-l-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs One post would have been enough. William Moore California Fine Wire, Co [email protected] 805-489-5144 -----Original Message----- From: mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] [mailto:mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected]] On Behalf Of Josh Diggs Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:33 AM To: mapics-l-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs I'm sorry, but this whole source code kerfuffle sounds like a tempest in a teapot to me. First, let's talk about personal responsibility. If your business is inextricably dependant on continued access to source code then you need to make sure that you have a valid contract stating that you have the access to said source. If you've taken that necessary step, then you can handle the situation with support, then escalate to management, then to the court system. Only at the last step (maybe the last two) is it really appropriate to publicly "bash" Infor. I've seen Infor personnel respond in a calm professional manner to this thread with what seem like entirely appropriate information. Additionally Ross's last post made it clear that the original poster has reasonably affordable access to source for at least long enough to get themselves out of the mess they are in. That sounds to me like Infor was very intentionally trying to bend their new source code policy to mitigate "the impact on the existing customer base". One of my high school teachers used to say "a failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part". All of that being said, I think that charging so damn much for source is a poor strategic choice, but that is Infor's decision to make. I think it is important to differentiate between what I see as Infor trying to shore up their revenue stream in order to continue this product line versus milking the remaining install base for a maximum of licensing fees before they kill off a dying product. If I thought that Infor was trying to "shaft" its' customers on the way out the door, I would be up in arms too, but I don't think that's what is happening. I sure hope I'm right. _______________________________________________ This is the MAPICS ERP System Discussion (MAPICS-L) mailing list To post a message email: MAPICS-L-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/mapics-l or email: MAPICS-L-request-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives at http://archive.midrange.com/mapics-l. _______________________________________________ This is the MAPICS ERP System Discussion (MAPICS-L) mailing list To post a message email: MAPICS-L-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/mapics-l or email: MAPICS-L-request-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives at http://archive.midrange.com/mapics-l. ------------------------------ message: 4 date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 08:24:15 -0700 from: "Sansi, Jim" <[email protected]> subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs Otto--- As was pointed out to me since I ran into the same issue... Look in your AMXLIBy srcpf UMBSRC I have to agree with modifying stock code, has anyone actually looked at Synon generated code? It is enough to give you a massive headache. :-) -J -----Original Message----- From: mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] [mailto:mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected]] On Behalf Of Otto Meyn Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 8:08 AM To: MAPICS ERP System Discussion Subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs I do not want the source code, have you really tried to read it. But Access to ALL Exit program source code should be allowed for anyone. I hope this has not been changed. -----Original Message----- From: mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] [mailto:mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected]] On Behalf Of Willie J. Moore Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 10:44 AM To: mapics-l-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs One post would have been enough. William Moore California Fine Wire, Co [email protected] 805-489-5144 -----Original Message----- From: mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] [mailto:mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected]] On Behalf Of Josh Diggs Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:33 AM To: mapics-l-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs I'm sorry, but this whole source code kerfuffle sounds like a tempest in a teapot to me. First, let's talk about personal responsibility. If your business is inextricably dependant on continued access to source code then you need to make sure that you have a valid contract stating that you have the access to said source. If you've taken that necessary step, then you can handle the situation with support, then escalate to management, then to the court system. Only at the last step (maybe the last two) is it really appropriate to publicly "bash" Infor. I've seen Infor personnel respond in a calm professional manner to this thread with what seem like entirely appropriate information. Additionally Ross's last post made it clear that the original poster has reasonably affordable access to source for at least long enough to get themselves out of the mess they are in. That sounds to me like Infor was very intentionally trying to bend their new source code policy to mitigate "the impact on the existing customer base". One of my high school teachers used to say "a failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part". All of that being said, I think that charging so damn much for source is a poor strategic choice, but that is Infor's decision to make. I think it is important to differentiate between what I see as Infor trying to shore up their revenue stream in order to continue this product line versus milking the remaining install base for a maximum of licensing fees before they kill off a dying product. If I thought that Infor was trying to "shaft" its' customers on the way out the door, I would be up in arms too, but I don't think that's what is happening. I sure hope I'm right. _______________________________________________ This is the MAPICS ERP System Discussion (MAPICS-L) mailing list To post a message email: MAPICS-L-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/mapics-l or email: MAPICS-L-request-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives at http://archive.midrange.com/mapics-l. _______________________________________________ This is the MAPICS ERP System Discussion (MAPICS-L) mailing list To post a message email: MAPICS-L-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/mapics-l or email: MAPICS-L-request-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives at http://archive.midrange.com/mapics-l. _______________________________________________ This is the MAPICS ERP System Discussion (MAPICS-L) mailing list To post a message email: MAPICS-L-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/mapics-l or email: MAPICS-L-request-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives at http://archive.midrange.com/mapics-l. ------------------------------ message: 5 date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 08:39:48 -0700 from: "Kevin Fox" <[email protected]> subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs Are we talking about modifying code or using the user exits? The shell code for the users exits is included with the product and does not require source code license to use. That is the whole point. With the user exits and now enterprise integrator you should not require source code. k -----Original Message----- From: mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] [mailto:mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sansi, Jim Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 8:24 AM To: MAPICS ERP System Discussion Subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs Otto--- As was pointed out to me since I ran into the same issue... Look in your AMXLIBy srcpf UMBSRC I have to agree with modifying stock code, has anyone actually looked at Synon generated code? It is enough to give you a massive headache. :-) -J -----Original Message----- From: mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] [mailto:mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected]] On Behalf Of Otto Meyn Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 8:08 AM To: MAPICS ERP System Discussion Subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs I do not want the source code, have you really tried to read it. But Access to ALL Exit program source code should be allowed for anyone. I hope this has not been changed. -----Original Message----- From: mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] [mailto:mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected]] On Behalf Of Willie J. Moore Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 10:44 AM To: mapics-l-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs One post would have been enough. William Moore California Fine Wire, Co [email protected] 805-489-5144 -----Original Message----- From: mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] [mailto:mapics-l-bounces-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected]] On Behalf Of Josh Diggs Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:33 AM To: mapics-l-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs I'm sorry, but this whole source code kerfuffle sounds like a tempest in a teapot to me. First, let's talk about personal responsibility. If your business is inextricably dependant on continued access to source code then you need to make sure that you have a valid contract stating that you have the access to said source. If you've taken that necessary step, then you can handle the situation with support, then escalate to management, then to the court system. Only at the last step (maybe the last two) is it really appropriate to publicly "bash" Infor. I've seen Infor personnel respond in a calm professional manner to this thread with what seem like entirely appropriate information. Additionally Ross's last post made it clear that the original poster has reasonably affordable access to source for at least long enough to get themselves out of the mess they are in. That sounds to me like Infor was very intentionally trying to bend their new source code policy to mitigate "the impact on the existing customer base". One of my high school teachers used to say "a failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part". All of that being said, I think that charging so damn much for source is a poor strategic choice, but that is Infor's decision to make. I think it is important to differentiate between what I see as Infor trying to shore up their revenue stream in order to continue this product line versus milking the remaining install base for a maximum of licensing fees before they kill off a dying product. If I thought that Infor was trying to "shaft" its' customers on the way out the door, I would be up in arms too, but I don't think that's what is happening. I sure hope I'm right. _______________________________________________ This is the MAPICS ERP System Discussion (MAPICS-L) mailing list To post a message email: MAPICS-L-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/mapics-l or email: MAPICS-L-request-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives at http://archive.midrange.com/mapics-l. _______________________________________________ This is the MAPICS ERP System Discussion (MAPICS-L) mailing list To post a message email: MAPICS-L-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/mapics-l or email: MAPICS-L-request-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives at http://archive.midrange.com/mapics-l. _______________________________________________ This is the MAPICS ERP System Discussion (MAPICS-L) mailing list To post a message email: MAPICS-L-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/mapics-l or email: MAPICS-L-request-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives at http://archive.midrange.com/mapics-l. _______________________________________________ This is the MAPICS ERP System Discussion (MAPICS-L) mailing list To post a message email: MAPICS-L-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/mapics-l or email: MAPICS-L-request-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives at http://archive.midrange.com/mapics-l. ------------------------------ message: 6 date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 11:19:15 -0500 from: "Kevin Mann" <[email protected]> subject: Re: [MAPICS-L] Source code costs A rebuttal to Ross's comments; As the originator of this post, I would like to again clarify a few points. When I started using Mapics (Mapics II) the source code was delivered free with your purchase of Mapics. I remember working for other companies in the 90s when either Marcam or Mapics started charging for source code. This was supposed to be a one time charge for source code never to be charged again. The companies that I worked for during that time had to purchase source code. Research, at my current company shows that they purchased source code for Mapics XA in 1997. Source code was provided for XA release 4 in 2004 and again after I arrived here in 2005 for release 7. There are people at Infor that have acknowledged to me that we do indeed have the rights to the source code. In Ross's first post he said that if you paid for it you should have it. I don't know when the ALF for source came about, but I can not find anyone in my area that had heard of it, including affiliates and former affiliates. We were using a local affiliate in 2005 and 2006 while converting to release 7. There was no mention of and no knowledge of ALF's at that time. I have no desire to modify more XA source code. I am only looking to maintain what we are currently using, which unfortunately, is heavily modified in some applications. In this instance I was looking for the source code for an inventory tag print file to see if I could get it to print on a laser printer. Source is also needed before I can apply a PTF against a previously modified program. I can understand Infor being more protective of their source code, but they must recognize the predicament that they are putting long time customers like us in, if we can't apply PTF's anymore. As to Josh's comments; This incident started with my starting inquiring to support when I could not find the source code download. This was escalated to the point we are at now which is talking with Infor management. The lawsuit that you mention would be a last resort which I would hope doesn't happen. I made my original post here only to notify others in my position that may have been unaware of this change. Note: I have had a conversation with someone in management with Infor's support team this morning. This person is researching our situation and will hopefully get back to me with some positive news. Thanks, Kevin ------------------------------ message: 7 date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 11:26:12 -0500 from: "Burns, Bryan" <Bryan_Burns-4pQSJKWblQ5Wk0Htik3J/[email protected]> subject: [MAPICS-L] Registered User Licensing at XAR5.5 or below I'd like to talk to someone off-list if they're licensed for registered users and are running XAR5.5 or below. Bryan Burns iSeries Specialist ECHO, Incorporated Lake Zurich, Illinois ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ This is the MAPICS ERP System Discussion (MAPICS-L) digest list To post a message email: MAPICS-L-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/mapics-l or email: MAPICS-L-request-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives at http://archive.midrange.com/mapics-l. End of MAPICS-L Digest, Vol 7, Issue 150 **************************************** _______________________________________________ This is the MAPICS ERP System Discussion (MAPICS-L) mailing list To post a message email: MAPICS-L-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change list options, visit: http://lists.midrange.com/mailman/listinfo/mapics-l or email: MAPICS-L-request-Zwy7GipZuJhWk0Htik3J/[email protected] Before posting, please take a moment to review the archives at http://archive.midrange.com/mapics-l.