Re: Trying ARK feedback

Harlan, replying to my cry for help (or something) wrote:

> > Want to run (Sidai-style) ARK stuff on one host?  OK, you
> > gotta tell ARK about it; something like...
> 
> Yes, 4 small pieces of info in 8 lines, surrounded by
> hair.  ... 

Yep.  Welcome to XML :-(  And, no, you're not the first to
look on in horror.  Using XML is one of the basic bets (of
the current version) of ARK.  We avoid inventing another
language -- which we would probably do badly -- and we
piggyback on something that actually fits the problem
(ugliness aside), and that has some momentum/tools/etc.

It is a closely-balanced decision.  Paul Anderson's group at
Edinburgh looked into the same abyss, and either went the
other way or came very close to it.  (The latest, Paul?)

There may come a time when we'll have GUIs and
pre-processors and whatnot to cover up the mess, but right
now "speaking ARK" means doing that angle-bracket thing 'til
the cows come home.  No way around it.

Similarly, the "ARK configuration language" behind those
angle-brackets (you know, the "ARK2" thing -- things,
fields, values, ...) is not going to change radically any
time soon, until we have lived with it long enough to know
what should replace it.  And it *does* have limits (e.g. no
nested fields), and I am sure we will be annoyed by it at
times.  (There are plenty of "extensions" we can think
about, meanwhile, however -- e.g. constraints.)

> For example, I don't see an obvious "roadmap" that tells
> me what I need to do to get up and running.

OK, I hope the docs are now a little better on this (with
more to do).  But the real issue is: ARK is a framework, not
a tool.  "Up and running" -- as *what*?  ARK as a package
manager?  As a PIKT front-end?  As an RPM front-end?  As
something to do a little user-management?  We'll work with
you (and anyone else) on any of those, or anything else
that's cool that you want to try.  (Chip-design, anyone?)

> I see webpage/*.txt stuff that isn't really .txt files.

Yes, this is a bug.  They were .txt files when I started :-)
Now they're HTML files that need a shell put 'round them.  I
will happily change them to another suffix if someone
suggests a good one.  Note: I expect the web stuff's gonna
change a lot anyway...

> ... I found an email message from Will that is starting to
> walk me thru the steps to get this enabled in a production
> environment and I'm still slogging thru it.  I haven't
> found "better" instructions, ...

Is this something I failed to fold into the documentation?
If so, could you forward a copy?

> And there needs to be some way to easily maintain it,
> which means the info needs to be "changed" in *1* place
> only, and that info must be automatically propagated to
> the places that need it.

Heartily agree.  Let's find the offenders and, if possible,
shoot them.

> And if we can come up with a clean/simple way to specify
> the XML info, we should use it.  Ideally, we should be
> able to generate this file from the XML info, and then
> "prove" the info by regenerating the XML info and
> comparing it to the originals.

Hey, I'm doubtful -- it's inventing a new configuration
language (or several) -- but I'm not standing in anyone's
way :-)

> > I've spent about 10 minutes on the glasli1 hosts' structure
> > over the life of the entire Arusha Project.  ...
>
> You wrote it and understand how it works.  ...

Yes, I'm well aware I'm the worst person to comment on this stuff. 

> I'd really like to see "ark" be a script that is
> self-bootstrapping.  In other words, it could/should have
> a way to make sure it can download, compile, and install
> python, pyxml, ersh, and whatever else it needs to "get
> going".  This will also solve the "new host running a new
> OS" problem.

Very cool! -- I've added it to ARK/webpages/ideas.txt.

Will