Re: Accessibility questions that are less technical
David Carlisle <[email protected]> Wed, 28 Jan 2026 12:15:37 +0000
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.tex.texhax |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CAEW6iOi5BmzTK+AwAy66LesAzp8ksKGybcqndyGkAOareOvhUw@mail.gmail.com> |
--0000000000005760b5064971b34c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable not sure this is the best list for discussing this but that file is somewhat broken show-pdf-tags can't open it, verapdf complains, and pac similarly gives a fatal error "EMC has no closing BMC or BMD, pdf document will be closed" I could try the tex source later, but you may do better with lualatex certainly for mathematics if you specify (as this file does) that it is UA-2 then you must supply MathML for every math expression LaTex can only automatically do that with luatex. So if using pdftex you need to supply the mathml, or target UA-1/PDF 1.7 On Wed, 28 Jan 2026 at 11:49, Jim Hefferon <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks again for the replies. There was some interest when I said this: > > 5) There is sometimes a tradeoff between a presentation that is useful > for visually-impaired users and others. To again name a concrete > example from ltx-talk, I sometimes show a sequence of graphics as > slides inside of a frame to illustrate changes (say, developing arc > length as line segments become shorter). Only the graphic changes, > not the surrounding text. I understand screen readers to re-read the > entire slide; certainly Okular does. That's pretty tedious after five > slides. Does anyone have advice about working through that? > > Folks told me that the answer is that the reader I was using, Okular > on Linux, is not sufficient. But I got some questions so just to make > the example concrete, I uploaded a file to my website > https://hefferon.net/review_integration.pdf that shows the behavior. > FWIW, it uses ltx-talk.cls and the source is > > https://gitlab.com/jim.hefferon/calc-ii-talks/-/blob/master/review_integr= ation/review_integration.tex?ref_type=3Dheads > . > Under Okular, if I ask it to read the whole document then it reads > the frame headed "Prototype" a new time for each slide, which is a lot > of times. > > Best, > Jim > > On Tue, Jan 27, 2026 at 3:01=E2=80=AFPM Jim Hefferon <jim.hefferon@gmail.= com> > wrote: > > > > Thank you Ulrike and David. Very helpful replies. For sure the video > > acts exactly like I want the doc to act, which is not what I was > > getting from Okular. I'll look into all of the suggestions. (My > > Firefox is #147; I couldn't immediately get orca to work with it but > > I'll look more.) > > > > I should try the blind-mathematicians list again; for myself, I know > > I've lost emails before now. > > > > Perhaps there are other people interested in discussing and sharing > > accessibility more as users than as developers? If there is > > significant interest then we could figure out a convenient way. > > > > Regards, > > Jim > > > > On Tue, Jan 27, 2026 at 9:44=E2=80=AFAM David Carlisle <d.p.carlisle@gm= ail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 27 Jan 2026 at 13:36, Jim Hefferon <[email protected]> > wrote: > > >> > > >> Hello. I have a number of questions that are perhaps less technical > > >> than most posts here. I apologize; they seem too soft SE or latex3'= s > > >> GitHub list, the tug.org accessibility list does not have substantiv= e > > >> traffic, and the blind-mathematicians mailing list did not accept my > > >> email. I hope folks here don't mind. > > >> > > >> I intend to re-make a book of mine to be accessible and I'm struggli= ng > > >> with some things that arose out of some preliminary, practice, work > > >> that I did. > > >> > > >> 1) At the bottom is an MWE document (I have today's TeX Live and I'm > > >> using LuaLaTeX). I do not currently have access to Windows so the > > >> NVDA screen reader is not an option. On Linux, Okular does not read > > >> the math correctly > > > > > > > > > You might do better to target pdf 1.7 and UA-1 rather than UA-2 > > > or at least if using UA-2 add an Alt to the Formula (which is the > default > > > with UA-1) by adding > > > > > > tagging-setup=3D{ math/alt/use,math/setup=3Dmathml-SE} > > > > > > alt/use specifies that LaTeX should add an Alt property to every > Formula (with the TeX source of that expression) > > > > > > this is not as good as tagging with mathml, but better than nothing. > > > > > > Note however that what matters most is the screen readers used by you= r > (human) not the one you have access to, so that may be nvda or jaws on > windows. > > > > > > You could try orca with firefox 148 or higher (currently in beta) > which has support for tagged pdf, although > > > I haven't had great success with orca so far. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> and does not read the alt text or "Black bird." at > > >> all. Are there better screen reader options? I'd sure like to do t= he > > >> highest PDF standard. At the moment I am developing my docs without > > >> being able to know what is the outcome and it is awkward. > > > > > > > > > > > > I can recommend using ngpdf https://ngpdf.com/loadFile to test your > file, that will show the tag structure > > > and also the derived HTML file, which is a reasonable representation > of the accessible view of the document. > > > > > > > > >> > > >> (I have > > >> not tried converting to HTML and using an HTML reader. I hope to po= st > > >> the PDF for free download.) > > >> > > >> 2) Can alt text contain math? If not, I must write "x times y" and > > >> "the sine function"? > > > > > > > > > > > > As noted above latex will add the tex source as alt text if you > specify pdf 1.7 and UA-1 or if you explicitly set > > > math/alt/use key to true. > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> 3) Is there any way to influence screen readers outside of textual? > > >> To give a concrete example, I would like to get a pause after > > >> execution of ltx-talk's \frametitle{..} command. > > > > > > > > > if the title is marked up as a title you would hope the screen reader > announces it as such and adds a suitable pause. > > > > > > > > >> > > >> I see that the > > >> package's documentation recommends periods in the title but in the t= he > > >> typographic tradition that I am used to, headlines don't have period= s. > > >> Is this just a matter of hoping that screen readers improve over tim= e? > > > > > > > > > Check the tagging of the title, if it is tagged as a heading it ought > to be automatically set off from the following text. > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> 4) Is there some best practices document that folks could recommend? > > >> For example, googling for guidelines on writing alt text gives many > > >> results but even the most high-profile ones seem to me to be both > > >> vague and contradictory. > > > > > > > > > vague and contradictory unfortunately describes many of the documents > in this area > > > both the standards themselves and tutorials from various places. > Things are getting better though. > > > > > >> For instance, some advocate a character > > >> limit while others recommend extensive description. I confess that I > > >> find it impossible to briefly describe a mathematical graph of the > > >> area under f(x)=3Dsin(x) between x=3Da and x=3Db broken into ten Rei= mann > > >> boxes, particularly without mathematical symbols. > > > > > > > > > well exactly. You can use unicode math symbols in an alt text but not > math layout > > > but mostly what you lose is navigation. You can't really follow a ful= l > math display > > > in a "one take" reading of an alt text whatever text you place in the > attribute. > > > Using mathml allows the reader to navigate into the expression, > > > reading subterms at their pace and in their order. But of course if > you are using a screen reader that doesn't understand the tagging that's > just a theoretical benefit, and using Alt is all you have. > > > > > >> > > >> In general, the > > >> advice I have seen online seems more directed to business documents > > >> than to documents for math or science. > > > > > > > > > that and often assuming that the tagging is being done by hand by > remediating the document after production rather than being added as part > of the typesetting as in LaTeX > > >> > > >> > > >> 5) There is sometimes a tradeoff between what is useful for > > >> visually-impaired users and others. To again name a concrete exampl= e > > >> from ltx-talk, I sometimes show a sequence of graphics as slides > > >> inside of a frame to illustrate changes (say, developing the arc > > >> length as a limit by showing line segments become shorter). Only th= e > > >> graphic changes, not the surrounding text. I understand screen > > >> readers to re-read the entire slide; certainly Okular does. > > > > > > > > > That sounds wrong, the default behaviour is just to read the last > slide (which is what you want for gradual reveals) > > > If you have more complicated interactions with text coming and going > it has some possibility to control which text > > > gets marked to be read and which is marked as Artifact. > > > > > >> That's > > >> pretty tedious after five slides. Does anyone have advice about > > >> working through that? > > > > > > > > > It's not supposed to happen. > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> Thank you, > > >> Jim Hefferon > > >> > > >> ................ Example document ............. > > > > > > > > > A video of your document unchanged being read by nvda (from foxit) is > at > > > > > > > https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/wbyumxcv16wk8vozlox9f/jh1.mp4?rlkey=3Dqrmm= rykcdv964zyvrpakvsy3m&st=3D0igpgs0v&dl=3D0 > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> \DocumentMetadata{ > > >> lang =3D en, > > >> pdfstandard =3D ua-2, > > >> pdfstandard =3D a-4f, %or a-4 > > >> tagging=3Don, > > >> tagging-setup=3D{math/setup=3Dmathml-SE} > > >> } > > >> \documentclass{article} > > >> \usepackage{unicode-math} > > >> \usepackage{graphicx} > > >> \usepackage{mathtools} > > >> > > >> \begin{document} > > >> Red dog. > > >> \begin{equation*} > > >> \int_{x=3D0}^1 x^2\,dx=3D\pi > > >> \end{equation*} > > >> Blue fish. > > >> \begin{center} > > >> % \includegraphics[alt=3D{Show the integral $\int x^2 dx$ as a > > >> graph.}]{example-image-a} > > >> \includegraphics[alt=3D{Show the integral as a > graph.}]{example-image-a} > > >> \end{center} > > >> Black bird. > > >> \end{document} > > >> > > >> -- > > >> "Does not the Captain seek your advice sir?" > > >> "Not always," said Stephen. > > > > > > > > -- > > "Does not the Captain seek your advice sir?" > > "Not always," said Stephen. > > > > -- > "Does not the Captain seek your advice sir?" > "Not always," said Stephen. > > --0000000000005760b5064971b34c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div>not sure this is the best list for discussing this bu= t that file is somewhat broken=C2=A0 show-pdf-tags can't open it, verap= df complains, and pac similarly gives a fatal error "EMC has no closin= g BMC or BMD, pdf document will be closed"</div><div><br></div><div>I = could try the tex source later, but you may do better with lualatex</div><d= iv><br></div><div>certainly for mathematics if you specify (as this file do= es) that it is UA-2 then you must supply MathML for every math expression</= div><div>LaTex can only automatically do that=C2=A0 with luatex. So if usin= g pdftex you need to supply the mathml, or target UA-1/PDF 1.7</div><div><b= r></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_cont= ainer"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, 28 Jan 2026 at 11:49, = Jim Hefferon <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">jim.hefferon@gma= il.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m= argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left= :1ex">Thanks again for the replies.=C2=A0 There was some interest when I sa= id this:<br> <br> 5) There is sometimes a tradeoff between a presentation that is useful<br> for visually-impaired users and others.=C2=A0 To again name a concrete<br> example from ltx-talk, I sometimes show a sequence of graphics as<br> slides inside of a frame to illustrate changes (say, developing arc<br> length as line segments become shorter).=C2=A0 Only the graphic changes,<br= > not the surrounding text.=C2=A0 I understand screen readers to re-read the<= br> entire slide; certainly Okular does.=C2=A0 That's pretty tedious after = five<br> slides.=C2=A0 Does anyone have advice about working through that?<br> <br> Folks told me that the answer is that the reader I was using, Okular<br> on Linux, is not sufficient.=C2=A0 But I got some questions so just to make= <br> the example concrete, I uploaded a file to my website<br> <a href=3D"https://hefferon.net/review_integration.pdf" rel=3D"noreferrer" = target=3D"_blank">https://hefferon.net/review_integration.pdf</a> that show= s the behavior.<br> FWIW, it uses ltx-talk.cls and the source is<br> <a href=3D"https://gitlab.com/jim.hefferon/calc-ii-talks/-/blob/master/revi= ew_integration/review_integration.tex?ref_type=3Dheads" rel=3D"noreferrer" = target=3D"_blank">https://gitlab.com/jim.hefferon/calc-ii-talks/-/blob/mast= er/review_integration/review_integration.tex?ref_type=3Dheads</a>.<br> =C2=A0 Under Okular, if I ask it to read the whole document then it reads<b= r> the frame headed "Prototype" a new time for each slide, which is = a lot<br> of times.<br> <br> Best,<br> Jim<br> <br> On Tue, Jan 27, 2026 at 3:01=E2=80=AFPM Jim Hefferon <<a href=3D"mailto:= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wr= ote:<br> ><br> > Thank you Ulrike and David.=C2=A0 Very helpful replies.=C2=A0 For sure= the video<br> > acts exactly like I want the doc to act, which is not what I was<br> > getting from Okular.=C2=A0 I'll look into all of the suggestions.= =C2=A0 (My<br> > Firefox is #147; I couldn't immediately get orca to work with it b= ut<br> > I'll look more.)<br> ><br> > I should try the blind-mathematicians list again; for myself, I know<b= r> > I've lost emails before now.<br> ><br> > Perhaps there are other people interested in discussing and sharing<br= > > accessibility more as users than as developers?=C2=A0 If there is<br> > significant interest then we could figure out a convenient way.<br> ><br> > Regards,<br> > Jim<br> ><br> > On Tue, Jan 27, 2026 at 9:44=E2=80=AFAM David Carlisle <<a href=3D"= mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>= > wrote:<br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > > On Tue, 27 Jan 2026 at 13:36, Jim Hefferon <<a href=3D"mailto:= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wr= ote:<br> > >><br> > >> Hello.=C2=A0 I have a number of questions that are perhaps le= ss technical<br> > >> than most posts here.=C2=A0 I apologize; they seem too soft S= E or latex3's<br> > >> GitHub list, the <a href=3D"http://tug.org" rel=3D"noreferrer= " target=3D"_blank">tug.org</a> accessibility list does not have substantiv= e<br> > >> traffic, and the blind-mathematicians mailing list did not ac= cept my<br> > >> email. I hope folks here don't mind.<br> > >><br> > >> I intend to re-make a book of mine to be accessible and I'= ;m struggling<br> > >> with some things that arose out of some preliminary, practice= , work<br> > >> that I did.<br> > >><br> > >> 1) At the bottom is an MWE document (I have today's TeX L= ive and I'm<br> > >> using LuaLaTeX).=C2=A0 I do not currently have access to Wind= ows so the<br> > >> NVDA screen reader is not an option.=C2=A0 On Linux, Okular d= oes not read<br> > >> the math correctly<br> > ><br> > ><br> > > You might do better to target pdf 1.7 and UA-1 rather than UA-2<b= r> > > or at least if using UA-2 add an Alt to the Formula (which is the= default<br> > > with UA-1) by adding<br> > ><br> > > tagging-setup=3D{ math/alt/use,math/setup=3Dmathml-SE}<br> > ><br> > > alt/use specifies that LaTeX should add an Alt property to every = Formula (with the TeX source of that expression)<br> > ><br> > > this is not as good as tagging with mathml, but better than nothi= ng.<br> > ><br> > > Note however that what matters most is the screen readers used by= your (human) not the one you have access to, so that may be nvda or jaws o= n windows.<br> > ><br> > > You could try orca with=C2=A0 firefox 148 or higher (currently in= beta) which has support for tagged pdf, although<br> > > I haven't had great success with orca so far.<br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > >><br> > >> and does not read the alt text or "Black bird." at<= br> > >> all.=C2=A0 Are there better screen reader options?=C2=A0 I= 9;d sure like to do the<br> > >> highest PDF standard.=C2=A0 At the moment I am developing my = docs without<br> > >> being able to know what is the outcome and it is awkward.<br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > > I can recommend using ngpdf=C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://ngpdf.com/lo= adFile" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://ngpdf.com/loadFile</a>= to test your file, that will show the tag structure<br> > > and also the derived HTML file, which is a reasonable representat= ion of the accessible view of the document.<br> > ><br> > ><br> > >><br> > >>=C2=A0 (I have<br> > >> not tried converting to HTML and using an HTML reader.=C2=A0 = I hope to post<br> > >> the PDF for free download.)<br> > >><br> > >> 2) Can alt text contain math?=C2=A0 If not, I must write &quo= t;x times y" and<br> > >> "the sine function"?<br> > ><br> > ><br> > ><br> > > As noted above latex will add the tex source as alt text if you s= pecify pdf 1.7 and UA-1 or if you explicitly set<br> > > math/alt/use key to true.<br> > ><br> > ><br> > >><br> > >><br> > >> 3) Is there any way to influence screen readers outside of te= xtual?<br> > >> To give a concrete example, I would like to get a pause after= <br> > >> execution of ltx-talk's \frametitle{..} command.<br> > ><br> > ><br> > > if the title is marked up as a title you would hope the screen re= ader announces it as such and adds a suitable pause.<br> > ><br> > ><br> > >><br> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0I see that the<br> > >> package's documentation recommends periods in the title b= ut in the the<br> > >> typographic tradition that I am used to, headlines don't = have periods.<br> > >> Is this just a matter of hoping that screen readers improve o= ver time?<br> > ><br> > ><br> > > Check the tagging of the title, if it is tagged as a heading it o= ught to be automatically set off from the following text.<br> > ><br> > >><br> > >><br> > >> 4) Is there some best practices document that folks could rec= ommend?<br> > >> For example, googling for guidelines on writing alt text give= s many<br> > >> results but even the most high-profile ones seem to me to be = both<br> > >> vague and contradictory.<br> > ><br> > ><br> > > vague and contradictory unfortunately describes many of the docum= ents in this area<br> > > both the standards themselves and tutorials from various places. = Things are getting better though.<br> > ><br> > >> For instance, some advocate a character<br> > >> limit while others recommend extensive description. I confess= that I<br> > >> find it impossible to briefly describe a mathematical graph o= f the<br> > >> area under f(x)=3Dsin(x) between x=3Da and x=3Db broken into = ten Reimann<br> > >> boxes, particularly without mathematical symbols.<br> > ><br> > ><br> > > well exactly. You can use unicode math symbols in an alt text but= not math layout<br> > > but mostly what you lose is navigation. You can't really foll= ow a full math display<br> > > in a "one take" reading of an alt text whatever text yo= u place in the attribute.<br> > > Using mathml allows the reader to navigate into the expression,<b= r> > > reading subterms at their pace and in their order. But of course = if you are using a screen reader that doesn't understand the tagging th= at's just a theoretical benefit, and using Alt is all you have.<br> > ><br> > >><br> > >> In general, the<br> > >> advice I have seen online seems more directed to business doc= uments<br> > >> than to documents for math or science.<br> > ><br> > ><br> > > that and often assuming that the tagging is being done by hand by= remediating the document after production rather than being added as part = of the typesetting as in LaTeX<br> > >><br> > >><br> > >> 5) There is sometimes a tradeoff between what is useful for<b= r> > >> visually-impaired users and others.=C2=A0 To again name a con= crete example<br> > >> from ltx-talk, I sometimes show a sequence of graphics as sli= des<br> > >> inside of a frame to illustrate changes (say, developing the = arc<br> > >> length as a limit by showing line segments become shorter).= =C2=A0 Only the<br> > >> graphic changes, not the surrounding text.=C2=A0 I understand= screen<br> > >> readers to re-read the entire slide; certainly Okular does.<b= r> > ><br> > ><br> > > That sounds wrong, the default behaviour is just to read the last= slide (which is what you want for gradual reveals)<br> > > If you have more complicated interactions with text coming and go= ing it has some=C2=A0 possibility to control which text<br> > > gets marked to be read and which is marked as Artifact.<br> > ><br> > >> That's<br> > >> pretty tedious after five slides.=C2=A0 Does anyone have advi= ce about<br> > >> working through that?<br> > ><br> > ><br> > > It's not supposed to happen.<br> > ><br> > >><br> > >><br> > >> Thank you,<br> > >> Jim Hefferon<br> > >><br> > >> ................ Example document .............<br> > ><br> > ><br> > > A video of your document unchanged being read by nvda (from foxit= ) is at<br> > ><br> > > <a href=3D"https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/wbyumxcv16wk8vozlox9f/j= h1.mp4?rlkey=3Dqrmmrykcdv964zyvrpakvsy3m&st=3D0igpgs0v&dl=3D0" rel= =3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/wbyumxcv16= wk8vozlox9f/jh1.mp4?rlkey=3Dqrmmrykcdv964zyvrpakvsy3m&st=3D0igpgs0v&= ;dl=3D0</a><br> > ><br> > ><br> > >><br> > >><br> > >> \DocumentMetadata{<br> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0lang=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =3D en,<br> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0pdfstandard =3D ua-2,<br> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0pdfstandard =3D a-4f, %or a-4<br> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0tagging=3Don,<br> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0tagging-setup=3D{math/setup=3Dmathml-SE}<br> > >> }<br> > >> \documentclass{article}<br> > >> \usepackage{unicode-math}<br> > >> \usepackage{graphicx}<br> > >> \usepackage{mathtools}<br> > >><br> > >> \begin{document}<br> > >> Red dog.<br> > >> \begin{equation*}<br> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0\int_{x=3D0}^1 x^2\,dx=3D\pi<br> > >> \end{equation*}<br> > >> Blue fish.<br> > >> \begin{center}<br> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0% \includegraphics[alt=3D{Show the integral $\int= x^2 dx$ as a<br> > >> graph.}]{example-image-a}<br> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0\includegraphics[alt=3D{Show the integral as a gr= aph.}]{example-image-a}<br> > >> \end{center}<br> > >> Black bird.<br> > >> \end{document}<br> > >><br> > >> --<br> > >> "Does not the Captain seek your advice sir?"<br> > >> "Not always," said Stephen.<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > --<br> > "Does not the Captain seek your advice sir?"<br> > "Not always," said Stephen.<br> <br> <br> <br> -- <br> "Does not the Captain seek your advice sir?"<br> "Not always," said Stephen.<br> <br> </blockquote></div> --0000000000005760b5064971b34c--