Re: *** RESPECTFULLY NOT SPAM *** Weekly Development Notes Followup

Hi everyone,

This was a personal mail to Monique, accidentally sent to the list.

You can use google translate if you're curious, but basically I invited 
Monique to share further feedback on the situation she experienced as 
unwelcoming, and how we can improve. We both live in Amsterdam, we can 
communicate directly easily.

Thanks,

-Ton-

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ton Roosendaal - [email protected] - www.blender.org
Chairman Blender Foundation, CEO Blender Institute / Studio
Buikslotermeerplein 161, 1025 ET Amsterdam, the Netherlands


On 05/10/2021 17:15, Ton Roosendaal wrote:
>
> Hoi Monique,
>
> Ik denk dat jouw feedback belangrijk en welkom is, maar op deze 
> mannier blijft het hangen in vage woorden. Wat is precies gebeurd toen 
> we "hired more and more devs"? Wanneer was dat, na de epic grant?
>
> Maar vooral, hoe kunnen we dit beter doen? Ik hoor hier jou graag 
> over, en dat mag ook in privee.
>
> De mail van Thomas vind ikzelf to the point. Thomas begint pas 
> officieel (voltijd) in november trouwens. Hij zal nog veel moeten inhalen.
>
> Groet,
>
> -Ton-
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ton Roosendaal - [email protected] - www.blender.org
> Chairman Blender Foundation, CEO Blender Institute / Studio
> Buikslotermeerplein 161, 1025 ET Amsterdam, the Netherlands
>
>
> On 24/09/2021 14:48, Monique Dewanchand via Bf-committers wrote:
>> I think Ryan's remarks raises some valid points.
>>
>> Putting words like "sigh" in your reports, to me, is not very professional.
>> As developers we all have had our moments of frustration and sometimes
>> unwillingly express those.
>> I hope we can forgive Bastien for this.
>> However I would expect from a Development Coordinator to notice these types
>> of things and act upon them. But perhaps my expectations are incorrect.
>> Is someone responsible for the quality of 'official' development
>> communications (like release notes etc )?
>>
>> In my experience, years and years ago, when there were only 2 devs
>> receiving some minimalistic contributions from Blender, I loved
>> contributing to Blender.
>> I found the overall vibe and attitude very pleasant, there was respect,
>> room for good discussions and constructive criticism. This vibe rapidly
>> changed when Blender started to hire more and more devs. (More)Processes,
>> rules and regulations made their way into Blender development, all for good
>> reasons, but at the expense of respect, good discussions and constructive
>> criticism.
>> Contributing to Blender Development had become frustrating for me, so I
>> stopt and decided to contribute in a different way (teaching Blender and
>> working on add-ons).
>>
>> In recent years I've noticed quite an improvement in the way blender
>> developers are communicating with "contributors". Is it perfect? Not yet.
>> Is there room for improvement? Yes, but it's definitely better than what it
>> used to be. I do think that contributors are still very valuable for
>> Blender development so I hope that blender devs, coordinators and
>> contributors take a bit more care in how they cooperate and communicate.
>>
>> kind regards,
>> Monique
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 12:42 PM Thomas Dinges via Bf-committers <
>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Ryan,
>>>
>>> I am not Dalai, but as Developer Community Coordinator I will try to
>>> answer.
>>>
>>> 1) As Ankit already mentioned, the message was likely marked as spam by
>>> some e-mail filter. Nothing more :)
>>>
>>> 2) Bastien replied to your mail and explained the situation and the
>>> reason for his note in the report. He also apologized and confirmed that
>>> it was not meant as a personal attack.
>>>
>>> The Blender developers do their best to communicate professionally and
>>> friendly. In my (round about) 7 years as contributor, in my free time, I
>>> always felt welcome.
>>> There were of course times, when I disagreed with the decisions made by
>>> module owners or the admins. At times this was a little bit frustrating.
>>> But the communication was always professional and friendly.
>>>
>>> We can of course argue about remarks such as the "(sigh...") in a
>>> report, but Bastien explained the situation and I don't see a personal
>>> attack in there, only a little bit of frustration and a remark that is
>>> human.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Thomas
>>>
>>> Am 24.09.2021 um 07:59 schrieb Ryan Inch via Bf-committers:
>>>> Thanks for your quick reply Bastian.  My email wasn't a prompt to be
>>>> defensive but a request for clarification from Dalai as the Blender
>>>> Development Coordinator.  Depending on what Dalai says, I'll follow up
>>>> with your points if need be because this is not about me but how
>>>> community developers are treated.
>>>>
>>>> Dalai, as Blender Development Coordinator, one specific request from
>>>> the Epic MegaGrant was to make Blender more professional.  I and other
>>>> community devs and members do not think this kind of notation is
>>>> professional.  It also disincentivizes engagement between core devs
>>>> and community devs who do consider this a type of attack.
>>>>
>>>> So again, my question to you as the Blender Development Coordinator is
>>>> 'In what case is it acceptable for a developer to put something like
>>>> "Spent time on re-explaining/re-investigating T9599 (sigh…)." in their
>>>> official weekly development notes?' And now, in what case is it
>>>> acceptable to mark an email asking about such an issue as spam?  I was
>>>> under the impression that personal attacks were not tolerated?
>>>>
>>>> Ryan
>>>>
>>>> On 2021-09-21 06:00 AM,[email protected]  wrote:
>>>>> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 09:20:11 +0200
>>>>> From: Bastien Montagne<[email protected]>
>>>>> To: Ryan Inch via Bf-committers<[email protected]>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Bf-committers] *** SPAM *** Weekly Development Notes
>>>>>      Followup
>>>>> Message-ID:<[email protected]>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Ryan,
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure how you see that as a personal attack? Fact is, I think
>>>>> spending half a day on something does earns it a note in the weekly
>>>>> report.
>>>>>
>>>>> And yes, I was frustrated spending time having to demo the issue after
>>>>> explaining it's cause/source, finding again the exact use case
>>>>> triggering it, rebuilding both branch and master to ensure it was proper
>>>>> example, etc. We all have (tight) schedules and I was frustrated this
>>>>> was considered high priority enough to take it over more pressing
>>>>> matters for Blender 3.0 upcoming BCon2.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know that expressing personal frustration may not be a good idea, but
>>>>> that does not in any case make it a personal attack, sorry if you felt
>>>>> it like that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Bastien.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9/21/21 8:49 AM, Ryan Inch via Bf-committers wrote:
>>>>>> Hello Dalai,
>>>>>> I missed reading Bastien's weekly notes last week or I would have
>>>>>> brought this issue up then.  In Bastien's notes for Week 425 - 09/04
>>>>>> to 09/10, one of his notes is this: "Spent time on
>>>>>> re-explaining/re-investigating T9599 (sigh…)."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In what case is it acceptable for a developer to put something like
>>>>>> this in their official weekly development notes?  I was under the
>>>>>> impression that personal attacks were not tolerated?  (And for the
>>>>>> record it's D9599 not T)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ryan
>>>>>>
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