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[05:57] <lilo> software upgrade in just a bit
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[06:11] <tvon> So, due to freenode being on crack....I missed any potential responses to my earlier questions
[06:11] <tvon> I was wondering about the status of the C# bindings.  Any ideas?
[06:11] <thaytan> I've been thinking about looking at them, but I don't know the status at all
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[06:12] <thaytan> I suspect they're woefully out of date wrt CVS, since I haven't seen any activity
[06:13] Action: tvon nods
[06:13] Action: tvon wonders what muine uses
[06:13] <tvon> prob just interfaces the C
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[06:14] <thaytan> I can't answer that one either :)
[06:15] <tvon> heh
[06:15] <tvon> How about this:  I don't really need to play media, I just need some help accessing id3 tags and ogg comments....would gst be good for that (language aside)?
[06:15] <thaytan> apparently they're in gtksharp in the mono tree
[06:16] <tvon> ah
[06:16] <thaytan> gst will be good, yeah
[06:16] <tvon> k, cool
[06:16] <thaytan> for free, you get any format gst supports above and beyond those
[06:16] <tvon> Yeah, thats always a bonus
[06:16] <thaytan> you need the 0.7 devel release for the tag support though
[06:16] <tvon> fetching gst cvs is on my short list for the night :)
[06:17] <thaytan> check out http://www.atoker.com/platano/
[06:17] <tvon> ah, the media player
[06:17] <thaytan> yeah, with his instructions for gst#
[06:17] <tvon> ah, nice
[06:18] <thaytan> but, as I said, I suspect it's out of date wrt to 0.7 gstreamer
[06:18] Action: tvon nods
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[09:59] <Matthew_I> why should I use gstreamer to developer my app rather than libxine or mplayer?
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[10:11] <thaytan> Matthew_I: if you're only interested in playback, then the only real reason is because it is the framework Gnome uses
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[12:55] <edulix> hi people!
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[12:58] <edulix> does anyone remember the gnome media player? is ther any project whose aim si to build a complete media player (something that would seem a mix of xmms with CD's digital audio extraction, skins, plugins..., rhythmbox with it's nice play lists [oI prefer JuK ]) and a video player ?
[12:58] <edulix> =)
[13:02] <thaytan> none I know
[13:02] <thaytan> there's a lot of media player projects these days though, it seems
[13:04] <edulix> a lot, but none is for common purpose. I think that something like konqueror but for playing media would be nice :-) 
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[13:10] <Uraeus> morning
[13:11] <thaytan> hey, yo
[13:13] <edulix> hi
[13:15] <Uraeus> thaytan: you didn't join the orkut revolution :)
[13:16] <thaytan> Uraeus: no, I thought it was a daft idea :)
[13:17] <Uraeus> thaytan: personally I find it somewhat usefull as a selfbuilding addressbook :)
[13:18] <thaytan> after this weekend, I no longer trust anyone... let alone google ;)
[13:18] <Uraeus> heh :)
[13:23] <thaytan> damn. I can't afford a new laptop until August
[13:23] <thaytan> back to the Athlon 2000 until then :)
[13:29] <Uraeus> thaytan: are you still working on perfercting our DVD playback?
[13:29] <thaytan> first I'll have to work on recreating what I had on that harddisk :/
[13:29] Nick change: m_wheels -> wheels
[13:29] <thaytan> but yes
[13:30] <Uraeus> ah, hope you didn't lose to much work
[13:31] <thaytan> enough to be annoying, plus some photos
[13:31] <Uraeus> thaytan: now you learn to cvs commit stuff steadily :)
[13:32] <thaytan> among other important lessons
[13:36] <wheels> edulix: I haven't heard of such a project for KDE or GNOME.  The problem is that interfaces that are specialized for a given application (i.e. music) are often more intuitive...
[13:37] <dolphy> morning
[13:38] <Uraeus> hola dolphy
[13:39] <Uraeus> dolphy: which video formats work for you in totem and gst-player?
[13:41] <dolphy> Uraeus: avi
[13:41] <dolphy> Uraeus: i have an issue with EOS not being handled correctly. I m working on that
[13:41] <dolphy> Uraeus: then i ll work on mpeg
[13:42] <edulix> wheels: have you seen the MS Media player ? It could be something similar
[13:42] <wheels> edulix: Yes, that's what I was basing my statement on.  ;-)
[13:43] <Uraeus> dolphy: ok, I think Quicktime mostly works to, but hopefully we can get Apoc to debug that a bit further to make it 'perfect'
[13:44] <dolphy> Uraeus: well yeah still a lot of work on demuxers
[13:44] <thaytan> which element does the mov demuxing?
[13:44] <Uraeus> thaytan: qtdemux I think
[13:44] <Uraeus> thaytan: I watches the Shrek2 trailer with gst-player yesterday
[13:45] <thaytan> how well does it do mpeg4 container?
[13:45] <Uraeus> no idea
[13:45] <wheels> edulix: RealOne I think comes a bit closer, but it's still pretty clunky for some things.
[13:48] <edulix> wheels: thanks for the info anyway ;)
[13:49] <Uraeus> wheels: are you planning to add visualization plugins support to Juk?
[13:50] <wheels> Uraeus: not really, at least not in the relatively near future.
[13:50] <Uraeus> wheels: to bad, cause we need someone to write a chapter for the PWG about how to write such plugins for GStreamer and maybe even a xmms viz porting guide :)
[13:51] <wheels> Uraeus: The only thing that I'm turning into a plugin interface for 3.3 is the media backend, and that's just to make it easier on packagers to ship the Gst-able JuK.
[13:51] <dolphy> Uraeus: could you please use gst-totem for your tests ?
[13:51] <Uraeus> dolphy: sure
[13:51] <dolphy> Uraeus: i would prefer that a maximum people use totem instead of gst-player
[13:51] <dolphy> Uraeus: so that we really get good feedback on gst-totem
[13:51] <wheels> Uraeus: Well, that's another part of things -- since I currently support a couple of backends I'm staying pretty conservative on what I'm actually doing with them...
[13:52] <Uraeus> wheels: hmm, but we want you to be a gstreamer zealot :)
[13:53] Action: Uraeus wonders who to recruit to finish the gstreamer paranormal port
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[13:55] Action: Uraeus wonders if sublett entry into the channel was a sign
[13:57] <sublett> hehe a sign of what?
[13:57] <dolphy> Uraeus: paranormal port ?
[14:00] <Uraeus> sublett: we need someone to complete the port of the paranormal viz to gstreamer :) and 2 seconds before you popped in I asked who should do that :)
[14:00] <Uraeus> dolphy: a very nice viz plugin
[14:01] <Uraeus> http://paranormal.sourceforge.net/
[14:02] <Uraeus> the author started a port, but now the project has been dead for 6 months+ I think
[14:04] <Uraeus> correction, it hasn't been touched in 2 years
[14:05] <Uraeus> darn, I have been working on this project long :) 
[14:07] <sublett> hmm hehe paranomal cvs won't build because of too new auto*
[14:09] <kmaraas> Uraeus, me too :)
[14:09] <kmaraas> Thu Dec 24 00:45:21 CST 1998 Shawn T. Amundson <[email protected]>
[14:09] <kmaraas>  
[14:09] <kmaraas>         * no.po: added translation by Kjartan Maraas <[email protected]>
[14:09] <kmaraas>  
[14:09] <kmaraas> [kmaraas@localhost po]$
[14:09] <Uraeus> sublett: glad to see you already are on the task :)
[14:09] <Uraeus> kmaraas: guess we should ask to Foundation to get us walking chairs with gnome logos :)
[14:09] <kmaraas> hehe
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[14:14] <sublett> Uraeus: have you seen paranormal in action? I got it compiled now, but the sample program in test/ spits out an error
[14:14] <Uraeus> sublett: I had the xmms working at a time, and there are of course the screenshots on the site
[14:31] <thaytan> hehehe
[14:31] Action: thaytan just realised that he's listed as the gst-editor maintainer :)
[14:31] <Uraeus> thaytan: congrats :)
[14:34] <thaytan> Uraeus: umm.. so how does one do a release?
[14:35] <Uraeus> thaytan: you either branch or tag cvs, then do a make distcheck, then upload the tarball to relevant sites
[14:35] <Uraeus> then send out a release email, update freshmeat etc., update gstreamer news
[14:35] <thaytan> ok, better wait until my ssh key gets replaced then
[14:37] <thaytan> (since I can't commit or tag atm)
[14:37] <Uraeus> ah :)
[14:37] <thaytan> g'night now tho
[14:37] <Uraeus> hmm, has thomasvs become a manjana person already :)
[14:38] <Uraeus> night thaytan
[14:38] <thaytan> what's that?
[14:38] <Uraeus> manjana? it's the spanish word for tommorow, commonly used when you ask why something promised isn't done :)
[14:39] <thaytan> ah, ok
[14:40] <thaytan> goodnight! :)
[14:40] <shawarma> I'm really having trouble getting started on writing a new source plugin.. I've gotten the gst-template from CVS but I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out which functions MUST be implemented and how much of the code is relevant for source-plugins.. Any pointers?
[14:41] <Uraeus> shawarma: none of the existing source plugins which are similar enough to yours so that you can use it as your template?
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[14:42] <shawarma> Uraeus: Yeah, the HTTP one is, but it's gone from CVS..
[14:46] <Uraeus> shawarma: well just grab an old release tarball
[14:47] <Uraeus> but then again a lot has change since http was used
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[14:52] Nick change: jimmy_dean_ -> jimmy_dean
[14:54] <sublett> hm..ok I've fixed up paranormal so it works in a 2004 world, should I just import the whole thing as a new viz sine the project looks dead or should I try to push some patches at paranormal and make viz with external lib?
[14:57] <shawarma> Uraeus: right. Thanks.
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[15:03] <Uraeus> sublett: import it as a new viz, don't think the old maintainer is around at all anymore
[15:04] <harobed> hi all, some people work on gnonlinear ?
[15:04] <Uraeus> sublett: gives dolphy a new cool viz to put in totem and gst-player, which xine doesn't have :)
[15:04] <Uraeus> harobed: not here today, but yes bilboed and co does
[15:05] <harobed> and what is there work progress ?
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[15:05] <harobed> they update web home page on gnonlin ?
[15:05] <Uraeus> harobed: not sure
[15:06] <Uraeus> harobed: bilboed said he was working on translating their project doc from french to english, not sure where it will be put up eventually
[15:06] <harobed> this project is important to make movie editor
[15:06] <Uraeus> yup
[15:06] <harobed> I'm french
[15:06] <harobed> where is this documentation ? url ?
[15:06] <Uraeus> gimme a sec and I try to find the URL
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[15:07] <harobed> ok, thanks
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[15:30] <Uraeus> ugh, machine locked up
[15:30] <harobed> Uraeus, then ? are you found the documentation ?
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[15:31] <Uraeus> harobed: didn't have it here (not on my main machine) but I will try to find the mail about in in the web archive of gst-devel mailing list
[15:32] <harobed> ok, I'll look this mailing list
[15:36] <Uraeus> harobed: did't find it, but if you ping my tommorow I would be back home and can dig it up
[15:39] <alley_cat> hmm, totem gst doesn't scale the image when going fullscreen
[15:41] <harobed> Uraeus, ok
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[15:45] <Uraeus> ello Shoragan
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[15:49] <Shoragan> ello ;)
[16:01] <thomasvs> does anyone know the reverse of --new-file in patch ?
[16:01] <thomasvs> erm, diff
[16:02] <Uraeus> --old-file? <g>
[16:04] <pb_> I don't think it has a negative form, unless --no-new-file works.
[16:10] <Uraeus> thomasvs: is it correct that the gstreamer-tools package is not versioned?
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[16:36] <Uraeus> hmm, looking at some screenshots of the latest enlightenment stuff makes we wonder if we to some degree has forgotten to have fun in the process of going mainstream
[16:43] <wheels> Uraeus: You could just talk about 1.0 for the next 5 years and never actually get to it if you want to mimic the process.  :-)
[16:47] <thomasvs> Uraeus: of course
[16:59] <shawarma> Why is the HTTP plugin considered obsolete? Because gnomevfs can do it too?
[17:00] <thomasvs> that, and not being maintained
[17:03] <foser> thomasvs: what about the versioning of binaries in 0.6.5 & 07.4 .. whats the news there
[17:05] <shawarma> Hmm.. If it at all makes sense, would you guys recommend writing a gnomevfs-module for something instead of a gstreamer-specific one?
[17:06] <foser> thomasvs: why is part of it double and not versioned ..i see those are scripts.. 
[17:10] <foser> thomasvs: so if one installes both 0.7& 06 in the same root there's double entries
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[17:19] Action: dolphy hates rifflib
[17:20] <thomasvs> <thomasvs> foser: you only install one set of them
[17:20] <thomasvs> <thomasvs> foser: either of them cna be used, since htey're the same
[17:20] <thomasvs> <thomasvs> foser: most recent ones are preferred
[17:20] <thomasvs> <thomasvs> foser: it's the job of the packager to make sure this is ensured
[17:20] <thomasvs> <thomasvs> foser: I sent a mail to the devel list asking packagers to get in contact with me on this
[17:20] <thomasvs> foser: (dropped off of internet again)
[17:20] <thomasvs> foser: so, if you're the gentoo packager, send me a mail as asked so we can discuss it and I can bring everyone in
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[17:23] <foser> thomasvs: ok
[17:25] <thomasvs> foser: let me know which of this logic doesn't work for gentoo or which isn't clear
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[17:38] <mathrick> hmm, what happened to topic? I suspect it has something to do with recent freenode restart?
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[18:28] <Dodji> hi
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[18:56] <Dodji> I am having a problem compiling gst-plugins
[18:56] <Dodji> gst-plugin head 
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[19:00] <mathrick> Dodji: what exactly is the problem?
[19:02] <dolphy> yay
[19:02] <dolphy> fixed !
[19:02] <Dodji> gstv4l2src.h uses a data strcuture called struct v4l2_buffer at line 55
[19:03] <Dodji> it appears that struct v4l2_buffer is not defined in my system (linux 2.6.2 mdk cooker)
[19:04] Action: mathrick wonders if it's 2.6 headers messed up issue again
[19:04] <mathrick> Dodji: I don't know if and how it was fixed
[19:04] <Dodji> because the file /usr/include/linux/videodev2.h that defines struct v4l2_buffer , defines it within #ifdef __KERNEL__
[19:05] <mathrick> dolphy: do you remember what was the solution for that?
[19:05] <Dodji> so struct v4l2_buffer is not available for a code outside the kernel
[19:05] <Dodji> mathrick: a trick would be to #define __KERNEL__ but I don't feel comfortable with that ...
[19:06] <Dodji> mathrick: if there is no immediate fix, it's okay, I'll wait
[19:07] <Dodji> I am just running jhbuild on GNOME head ... i skipped gst-pluggin for the moment
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[19:18] <dolphy> mathrick: hmm
[19:19] <dolphy> mathrick: i think it was a different issue with the V4L defines
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[20:07] <dolphy> gst-totem starts to really work like a charm
[20:07] <dolphy> seeking, eos, next a zillion time, no mem seak, correct error handling
[20:08] <dolphy> getting closer and closer...
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[20:18] Action: dolphy switches to mpeg fixing
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[20:25] <sxpert> dolphy: no mem Leaks you mean ?
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[20:39] Action: mathrick wonders if emacs devs ever heard of cvs modules
[20:40] <mathrick> additional slurping of 30MB Elisp manual when all I need is CVS HEAD emacs is not much fun :\
[20:44] <sxpert> mathrick: lol
[20:45] <mathrick> also, they have elisp-manual-txt, elisp-manual-html, elisp-manual-texinfo, elisp-manual-ps, of course all commited to CVS :\
[20:46] <sxpert> hahahhaa
[20:46] <mathrick> it's ridiculous
[20:46] <sxpert> elist-manual-groff
[20:46] <sxpert> elisp-manual.pod
[20:46] <mathrick> nooooo, this can't be true
[20:46] <sxpert> elisp-manual.sgml (they haven't made it to xml yet)
[20:47] <mathrick> they also have separate elisp-manual-20.2.5 in there :\
[20:47] <sxpert> hahahha
[20:47] <mathrick> what crack do these guys smoke!?
[20:47] <sxpert> mathrick: elisp-for-morons.pdf
[20:48] <sxpert> mathrick: uh, RMS' home grown stuff ?
[20:49] <dolphy> sxpert: yeah no mem leak sorry
[20:49] <sxpert> heh..
[20:51] <mathrick> holy shit
[20:51] <mathrick> U emacs/elisp-manual-20-2.5/elisp-info.tar
[20:51] <mathrick> U emacs/elisp-manual-20-2.5/elisp-info.tar.gz
[20:52] <sxpert> lol
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[20:53] Action: BBB waves @ those in here
[20:53] <mathrick> yo BBB
[20:53] <BBB> hi
[20:53] <mathrick> how's it in NYC?
[20:53] <BBB> imagine this: I'm in the most beautiful city in the world, it's 3pm and what do I do?
[20:54] <sxpert> BBB: got your laptop fixed and internet access ?
[20:54] <BBB> I'm going to university to quickly check my email
[20:54] <BBB> I must be insane
[20:54] <BBB> laptop still broken, internet only @ uni
[20:54] <sxpert> BBB: you are :D
[20:54] <BBB> but NYC is beautiful
[20:54] <BBB> really excellent
[20:54] <sxpert> BBB: how many times have you been strip-searched this week ?
[20:55] <BBB> ?
[20:55] <BBB> strip-searched=?
[20:55] <sxpert> well, yeah, with that dutch accent of yours, you must be a terrorist :D
[20:56] <harshy> shit
[20:56] <harshy> I am american and get strip searched
[20:56] <sxpert> harshy: hehe
[20:56] <harshy> and I am white
[20:56] <harshy> go figure
[20:56] <BBB> well, since I don't know what it is, apprently not at all
[20:56] Action: harshy thinks its the beard
[20:56] <BBB> the US people are really nice over here
[20:57] <mathrick> BBB: http://www.onelook.com/?w=strip-search&ls=a
[20:57] <harshy> BBB: really? you must be in the gay part of NYC then
[20:57] <BBB> <g>
[20:57] <BBB> not nice as in social
[20:57] <sxpert> harshy: hahaha
[20:57] <BBB> nice as in tolerant
[20:57] <harshy> ah ok
[20:58] <harshy> I was gonna say
[20:58] <harshy> "we" are assholes
[20:58] <BBB> I noticed that
[20:58] <BBB> but I still like you US people
[20:58] <harshy> hehe
[20:58] <BBB> ;)
[20:58] <sxpert> harshy: ROTFL
[20:58] <harshy> thats good
[20:59] <dilinger> obviously us new yorkers aren't trying hard enough :)
[20:59] <harshy> haha
[20:59] <sxpert> harshy: ah, you have beard? yeah, that will do it ;D
[20:59] <harshy> sxpert: I dont have an osama beard tho
[20:59] <harshy> just a little fuzz thing
[21:00] <sxpert> harshy: well, they don't really have a concept of "a bit of something"... more like "you're with us, or against us"
[21:00] <harshy> ya
[21:00] <harshy> oh well
[21:00] <harshy> screw em
[21:00] <harshy> screw bush
[21:00] Action: BBB agree
[21:00] <sxpert> harshy: everything in their born-again-christian mind is black or white, gray is irrelevant
[21:00] <harshy> tho I am not too fond of the Kerry guy
[21:01] <harshy> indeed
[21:01] <sxpert> harshy: at least, that one went to viet nam and doesn't lie about it...
[21:01] <harshy> ya
[21:01] <BBB> clark?
[21:02] <harshy> but they are complaining about him because he decided to protest the war and may testimony on the crimes over there
[21:02] <BBB> he's shown himself in the NATO, hge's ok
[21:02] <harshy> no kerry
[21:02] <BBB> too bad he quit
[21:02] <BBB> :/
[21:02] <harshy> eh
[21:02] <BBB> no but harshy, I meant that clark might be an ok guy
[21:02] <harshy> ya
[21:02] <harshy> but the population didnt think so
[21:03] <BBB> that same population elected bush
[21:03] <BBB> go figure
[21:03] <BBB> ;)
[21:03] <harshy> ya
[21:03] <BBB> (democracy sucks)
[21:03] <harshy> stupidicy
[21:03] <sxpert> harshy: that 2 party system of "big government" and "bigger government" needs to be put to rest...
[21:03] <sxpert> BBB: the US are *NOT* a democracy. they're a republic
[21:04] <sxpert> BBB: and bush was *selected* by the supremes, not elected
[21:06] <sxpert> harshy: I have an idea, there should be a tax on stupidity... flat rate for everybody...
[21:07] <harshy> ya
[21:07] <harshy> and us smart ones get exempt when we discover new ideas
[21:07] <sxpert> should be enough to finance *everything*
[21:07] <harshy> shit, id be motivated
[21:08] <wheels> sxpert: Well, of course that depends on how you define democracy...
[21:08] Action: wheels is tempted to get dragged into a politics debate just on principal, despite a general distaste for Bush.
[21:09] <sxpert> wheels: "democracy" has a specific meaning. defined by the way the greek cities worked in 2000 BC
[21:09] <wheels> sxpert: Well, if you're to exclude republican democracy, then well, there aren't any nations that are a democracy.
[21:09] <sxpert> wheels: the simple fact that the US relies on the electoral college to select the president disqualifies it
[21:10] <Misirlou>  Constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition
[21:10] <Misirlou> Bring it to #politics
[21:10] <wheels> sxpert: No, that just makes it republican democracy -- which is what pretty much every "democratic" nation in the world does.  :-)
[21:11] <BBB> sxpert: oh shut up... you don't know how the US works... at least I dare to come here and experience it myself
[21:11] <Misirlou> Bring it to #politics
[21:11] <BBB> US is a democracy, it's a country of extremes, both in freedom and suppression
[21:11] <BBB> I like the country
[21:11] <sxpert> BBB: I own property in Arizona
[21:11] <BBB> just as I like Netherlands
[21:12] Action: wheels didn't realize that BBB was in the US now.
[21:12] <sxpert> BBB: and I have an associate degree in liberal arts, which includes US history & politics
[21:13] <wheels> sxpert: Heh, that's fine and well, but doesn't give any particular authority on the matter.
[21:13] <BBB> sxpert: apparently, you missed a lot
[21:14] <BBB> sxpert: I've been into US and EU politics for many years, too... I just never bothered to get a degreee since I want my degrees in philosophy, biomedical sciences (MD next year) and CS (MD in +/- 3 yrs?) first
[21:14] <BBB> and again: I live here. I can speak. I experience it
[21:14] <sxpert> BBB: hehe
[21:15] <sxpert> BBB: ok, the bush nomination was a coup :D
[21:15] <BBB> I know.... and bush is an ass... but that doesn't mean the US sucks
[21:15] Action: wheels has lived in both the US and EU as well -- it's actually notable that the "democracy" is more indirect in most European parliamentary style govenments than what's set up by the electoral college.
[21:16] <ChrisHJW> BBB !!!
[21:16] <ChrisHJW> how are you
[21:16] <BBB> hi chris!
[21:16] <BBB> doing fine, thanks
[21:16] <ChrisHJW> how is the apple :)
[21:16] <BBB> as I just said, I love it!
[21:16] <dolphy> BBB: hi :)
[21:16] <ChrisHJW> good :)
[21:17] Action: ChrisHJW has been there once, years ago
[21:17] <BBB> downtown NYC is beautiful, central park is amazing, ice-skating there is very romantic, the people here are very tolerant (even though some aren't social) and I've got some good contaxcts
[21:17] Action: ChrisHJW saw the old world trade center
[21:17] <BBB> it's great
[21:17] Action: ChrisHJW even went up the old wtc
[21:17] <sxpert> BBB: what does the "Big hole" looks like ?
[21:17] Action: sxpert too
[21:17] <BBB> ground zero?
[21:17] <sxpert> yeah
[21:17] <BBB> I'll go there next week
[21:18] <BBB> it's in the financials, that's far south from where I live and work
[21:18] <ChrisHJW> dont forget to go wall street then :)
[21:18] <BBB> dolphy: hi
[21:18] <BBB> dolphy: is player working well now?
[21:18] <dolphy> BBB: totem works fine yeah
[21:18] <BBB> can I playback quicktime, mpeg and divx/avi?
[21:18] <ChrisHJW> BBB : i need an opinion on gstreamer's capabilities
[21:18] <dolphy> BBB: i m working on mpeg now
[21:18] <BBB> \o/
[21:19] <BBB> chris: as always, just ask :)\
[21:19] <sxpert> ChrisHJW: not sure you can go there any more if you're not a registered trader
[21:19] <dolphy> BBB: the mpeg bug only happens with spider
[21:19] <BBB> oh, I wanna leave in like 5 minutes
[21:19] <dolphy> BBB: and it seems to be clocking related
[21:19] <BBB> I'm planning on going downtown agian today
[21:19] <dolphy> BBB: any clues ?
[21:19] <ChrisHJW> BBB : very quickly, wait
[21:19] <BBB> dolphy: what's the bug?
[21:19] <BBB> the audio thing?
[21:19] <dolphy> BBB: seems that it plays frame by frame after 2 seconds
[21:19] <ChrisHJW> this is from Avery Lee, the author of Virtualdub, when we informed him about TCME based on gstreamer :
[21:19] <dolphy> BBB:  the machine is idle
[21:19] <BBB> ah, that
[21:19] <dolphy> BBB: i m sure it s clock related
[21:20] <BBB> dolphy: figure out the pipeline that it plays
[21:20] <ChrisHJW>  I didn't kill 2.0 because DirectShow sucks, I killed it because I didn't have time to write a new codebase and maintain an old one when the two were completely separate. I merged all of the good stuff from the 2.0 branch into 1.5, mainly the display code and the system library.
[21:20] <dolphy> BBB: the pipeline autoplugged by spider is identical to mpegdemux ! mpeg2dec mad
[21:20] <BBB> dolphy: audio is the issue, not video
[21:20] <BBB> (I think)
[21:20] <ChrisHJW> VirtualDub isn't based on any particular API; it has isolation layers for both input and output. It primarily uses Video for Windows right now, but that code path is completely bypassed in some circumstances, such as when MPEG-1 or image sequences are involved. What's annoying about DirectShow is that it is a selfish API -- that is, its architecture dictates that everything be plugged into the filter graph, and thanks to some idiot at Mic
[21:20] <dolphy> BBB: i guess it has to do with the mpegdemux being added when autoplugging
[21:20] <ChrisHJW> DirectShow is mainly designed so that you architect your entire app around it and let it do most of the work, which is fine if you want a quick-and-dirty playback feature, but sucks for an editing app. I haven't seen GStreamer's architecture, but I suspect it suffers from some problems as filter graph architectures just seem to be inherently selfish in nature. Creating usable isolation layers in these cases is difficult.
[21:21] <dolphy> BBB: it registers itself as a clock receiver after the video and audio sink
[21:21] <dolphy> BBB: probably that makes the issue
[21:21] <ChrisHJW> BBB : read the last sentence from him ... is he right ?
[21:21] <BBB> chris: yes, we work like that too. his issue is that he refuses to integrate his app into it... that's his problem, not ours
[21:21] <sxpert> ChrisHJW: we missed after "and thanks to some idiot at Mic" (...)
[21:21] <BBB> dolphy: can you remove that?
[21:22] <BBB> chris: we have that too, but that's natural
[21:22] <ChrisHJW> DirectShow is mainly designed so that you architect your entire app around it and let it do most of the work, which is fine if you want a quick-and-dirty playback feature, but sucks for an editing app. I haven't seen GStreamer's architecture, but I suspect it suffers from some problems as filter graph architectures just seem to be inherently selfish in nature. Creating usable isolation layers in these cases is difficult.
[21:22] <BBB> chris: the issue with avery is that he wants his private, own, controlled, self-written framework
[21:22] <ChrisHJW> is it ?
[21:22] <BBB> and he wants to use DS in that system of his
[21:22] <BBB> *that doesn't work*
[21:22] <sxpert> ChrisHJW: we got that. we didn't get what the idiot at Mic[rosoft] did
[21:22] <ChrisHJW> that is, its architecture dictates that everything be plugged into the filter graph, and thanks to some idiot at Microsoft, the logic for behaving in the filter graph is statically compiled into every filter. This makes it difficult to implement some of my traditional optimizations, such as parallel I/O for reading AVIs.
[21:22] <BBB> he makes a private copy of the DS framework for his own use
[21:22] <BBB> that's a stupid idea
[21:23] <BBB> it'd take him a few days of design to do it within gst or DS
[21:23] <dolphy> BBB: remove what ?
[21:23] <BBB> and it'd save him months and years of work to integrate all media formats in it and fix bugs
[21:23] <BBB> dolphy: the clocking code from mpegparse/demux
[21:23] <dolphy> BBB: it s inherent to autoplugging that mpegdemux arrives later
[21:23] <dolphy> BBB: ah
[21:23] <dolphy> BBB: it's not needed ?
[21:23] <BBB> I don't think so
[21:24] <BBB> chris: I'd say that avery misses the point of DS and Gst...
[21:24] <ChrisHJW> 'the logic for behaving in the filter graph is statically compiled into every filter' <---- does gstreamer do the same ?
[21:24] <BBB> and if he thinks I'm wrong, please let him explain it to me
[21:24] <BBB> chris: yes
[21:24] <ChrisHJW> ok
[21:25] <BBB> he probably misses specific functionalities that he thinks should be in the framework, not knowning there's other (better) solutions for his issues
[21:25] <BBB> I've thought about editing a lot, and have a lot of good ideas on it
[21:25] <BBB> I just don't have time
[21:25] <BBB> ;)
[21:25] <sxpert> ChrisHJW: however, he can probably build that parallel avi loader of his as a gstreamer plugin
[21:25] <ChrisHJW> 'This makes it difficult to implement some of my traditional optimizations, such as parallel I/O for reading AVIs'  <--- is this necessary at all ?
[21:25] <BBB> no
[21:25] <BBB> and it's possible (I didn't say easy, because the whole idea isn't easy at all anyway) with Gst
[21:26] <BBB> anyway, this is really advanced design... it's hard, and if you're not good enough, you'll fail... I hope avery is professional enough to see that
[21:27] <BBB> this is why people at adobe create premiere, and nobody ever was able to do what adobe did
[21:27] <BBB> because they're *pro's*
[21:27] <BBB> they're excellent designers
[21:27] <BBB> and they have money, time, etc.
[21:27] <BBB> if I had all of that, I'd work on it too
[21:28] <BBB> anyway, I'm off downtown
[21:28] <BBB> I wanna do fun stuff now
[21:28] <BBB> :)
[21:29] <ChrisHJW> nite
[21:29] <ChrisHJW> have fun :)
[21:30] <BBB> later
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[21:30] <mathrick> U emacs/elisp-manual-20-2.5/elisp.dvi
[21:30] <mathrick> U emacs/elisp-manual-20-2.5/elisp.dvi.gz
[21:30] <mathrick> U emacs/elisp-manual-20-2.5/elisp.html
[21:30] <mathrick> U emacs/elisp-manual-20-2.5/elisp.html.gz
[21:30] <mathrick> it's sick
[21:30] <sxpert> mathrick: spotted any pdf yet
[21:31] <mathrick> sxpert: yep, pdf is in there too
[21:31] <mathrick> U emacs/elisp-manual-20-2.5/elisp.pdf
[21:31] <mathrick> U emacs/elisp-manual-20-2.5/elisp.ps
[21:31] <mathrick> U emacs/elisp-manual-20-2.5/elisp.ps.gz
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[21:31] <sxpert> hahahahhaa
[21:31] <sxpert> someone at fsf needs to be given the cluestick
[21:31] Action: mathrick wonders when he'll be able to see some actual source code
[21:32] <sxpert> lol
[21:32] <sxpert> mathrick: what do you want to do with it ?
[21:32] <mathrick> sxpert: compile with gtk2
[21:32] <sxpert> ah, hehe
[21:32] <dolphy> lol BBB seems to have fun there like it was impossible to  have fun in Netherlands :)
[21:32] <mathrick> sxpert: what's in debian isn't recent enough
[21:33] <dolphy> sometimes people just need to get out of their swamp to have fun
[21:33] <sxpert> dolphy: it is... unless you're there to smoke some 5 fingered leaves
[21:33] <dolphy> strange they don't realize they could have the same fun in their own place
[21:34] <mathrick> dolphy: it's just as you say - fun comes from going somewhere else, not so much from actual place :)
[21:34] <dolphy> well i ve been in a lot of places
[21:34] <dolphy> and now i realize you can have the same fun in your place :)
[21:34] <sxpert> dolphy: spain is a lot of places in itself ;D
[21:35] <dolphy> NYC is not better than Amsterdam, Barcelona, Lyon, Paris, Pragues..
[21:35] <dolphy> all the same
[21:35] <dolphy> there are cool people and morons everywhere
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[21:36] <dolphy> the only thing that really changes is weather :)
[21:36] <sxpert> dolphy: *lots* of morons, not so many cool people by my book
[21:37] <mathrick> yo thaytan
[21:39] <dolphy> sxpert: in NYC you mean ?
[21:40] <sxpert> dolphy: anywhere ;D
[21:41] <dolphy> sxpert: well the percentage is not nice to see that's true :)
[21:41] <sxpert> heh
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[21:49] <mathrick> grrreat
[21:49] <mathrick> cvs server: Updating emacs/emacs-lisp-intro
[21:49] <sxpert> hahahah
[21:50] Action: mathrick is going to kick emacs guys really hard
[21:50] <sxpert> mathrick: after the "all in one file", the "lots of little files" version :D
[21:51] <mathrick> sxpert: no, it's all-in-one-and-lots-of-little-ones-too
[21:51] <sxpert> hahahha
[21:51] <sxpert> lemme guess, lots of gif screen shots too ?
[21:52] <mathrick> no, it wouldn't make too much sense to take screenshots of elisp, I guess ;)
[21:53] <sxpert> who knows :D
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[21:53] <mathrick> but nevertheless, every possible format someone ever created is commited, just in case :\
[21:54] <sxpert> lol
[21:54] Action: mathrick hopes there's no emacs-lisp-intro-20-2.5
[21:56] <sxpert> lol
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[22:02] Nick change: Kaetzchen -> alley_cat
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[22:15] Action: dolphy loves debugging clocking in mpeg
[22:16] <sxpert> lol
[22:16] <sxpert> clock, clock
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[22:24] <mathrick> oh yes, I've waited for that: cvs server: Updating emacs/manual
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[22:25] <sxpert> ah, debian unstable gstreamer was just updated
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[22:51] <dolphy> thomasvs: yop
[22:52] <thomasvs> gah, my net is flakey
[22:52] <dolphy> thomasvs: i m trying to fix mpeg
[22:52] <dolphy> thomasvs: tough one
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[23:11] <ramon> Hi.
[23:12] <ramon> Nobody here.
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[23:13] <wheels> heh
[23:15] <dolphy> night
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[00:00] --- Mon Feb 16 2004
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[00:43] <looksaus> would a musicxml plugin be suitable for gstreamer?
[00:44] <looksaus> (musicxml is an open XML describing format for music notation)
[00:44] <looksaus> it contains somewhat more information than MIDI
[00:46] <looksaus> http://musicxml.org/xml.html
[00:49] <thomasvs> looksaus: I think it could work, yeah
[00:50] <looksaus> would be really nice for people studying music
[00:51] <looksaus> and a great way to encourage open standards in music notation
[00:52] <looksaus> but I guess the main problem getting audio out of that
[00:52] <looksaus> is the MIDI playback, right?
[00:52] <looksaus> is there any current document on where MIDI support is going in gstreamer?
[00:53] <looksaus> (sorry if I'm asking for something all too obvious)
[00:54] <walters> ds: nice reply on the list :)
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[01:00] <bitpoet> i want to see a musicxml plugin, which synthesizes the music, and speaks the lyrics with festival.  that would be cool.
[01:00] <bitpoet> musically offensive, but cool  :-)
[01:00] <looksaus> :)
[01:01] <lupusBE> I would like to see xmms or beep with gstreamer
[01:02] <lupusBE> rhytmbox is to big
[01:14] <mathrick> lupusBE: gst support is being added to beep, or maybe even is already there
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[01:20] <lupusBE> nice mathrick
[01:20] <lupusBE> this will make xmms obsolete :p
[01:20] <mathrick> lupusBE: RB already did so ;P
[01:20] <lupusBE> RB?
[01:21] <mathrick> lupusBE: rhythmbox
[01:21] <lupusBE> ah :)
[01:23] <lupusBE> but I don't like rhythmbox playlist
[01:23] <lupusBE> it's to big
[01:23] <lupusBE> winamp style I love :)
[01:23] <mathrick> lupusBE: too big? what do you mean?
[01:23] <mathrick> ah, this
[01:25] <mathrick> well, I for one don't need playlist for aesthetic purpose, what I need is good working one :) I keep RB in tray all the time anyway
[01:25] <lupusBE> :)
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[01:26] <lupusBE> I hope most programs will start using gstreamer
[01:26] <mathrick> yep, that's the plan :)
[01:27] <lupusBE> are the people of kde supportive 
[01:27] <mathrick> hmm, don't know what you really mean, but I guess yes
[01:27] <hyriand> lupusBE: I'm writing a winamp/xmms like media player that uses gstreamer
[01:27] <lupusBE> I mean positive about it :)
[01:27] <hyriand> (well, it's more than just that actually)
[01:28] <mathrick> lupusBE: you can ask wheels, he's KDE guy :)
[01:28] <mathrick> hyriand: are you still in touch with deadchip?
[01:28] <lupusBE> hyriand, in gtk2 ?
[01:28] <wheels> mathrick: Well, after they tarred and feathered me...  ;-)
[01:28] <mathrick> wheels: hehe ;)
[01:29] <hyriand> mathrick: nope.. not really.. but that's probably because I've stalled development atm
[01:29] <hyriand> lupusBE: yes
[01:29] <lupusBE> is there a cvs ?
[01:29] <mathrick> wheels: but really, is there serious resistance to gst?
[01:29] <hyriand> lupusBE: nope.. not even a pre-release :)
[01:29] <lupusBE> :)
[01:29] <hyriand> lupusBE: I have a screenshot though :)
[01:29] <wheels> mathrick: sure, but there's some reasonable support as well
[01:29] <lupusBE> gstreamer is one of the things I want to learn :)
[01:30] <wheels> mathrick: and most of the resistance doesn't come from anybody that's willing to offer a serious alternative
[01:30] <mathrick> wheels: ahh, that's good
[01:30] <lupusBE> gstreamer gtk2 hal that's about it for now :)
[01:31] <mathrick> wheels: I realize there are always naysayers around, but they aren't ones who really decide :)
[01:31] <wheels> mathrick: I mean, that's the thing -- like GStreamer vs. "Some Ideal Media Interface in Qt / C++" -- sure -- the latter sounds great to KDE people, but when it's more like GStremer vs. libxine or MAS, GStreamer looks a bit better.  :-)
[01:32] <hyriand> lupusBE: http://thegraveyard.org/media/meeple-bionica2.png (converted winamp bionica2 skin, meeple's skin format is more flexible.. and showing of scaling capabilities)
[01:32] <wheels> mathrick: and the reality is that the real decision is much closer to the latter of those two...
[01:32] <mathrick> wheels: hehe, anything vs. MAS looks a little bit better ;)
[01:32] <mathrick> wheels: latter == MAS ?no way
[01:33] <wheels> mathrick: Well, I mean that the "ideal" for KDE doesn't exist -- and won't in the next 6 months...
[01:33] <lupusBE> MAS is something below gstreamer :)
[01:33] <mathrick> MAS is something nonexistant
[01:34] <lupusBE> I have an rpm of it :)
[01:34] <mathrick> I recommend you to take a look at their mailing list
[01:34] <bitpoet> no you don't  :-)
[01:34] <wheels> mathrick: And most of the people complaining about Gst haven't yet gotten to the point of realizing that you have to choose from what exists, not what's ideal -- or you have to write your own, which we don't have time or interest for...
[01:34] <lupusBE> I created a rpm for mas
[01:34] <lupusBE> when I was learning rpm building
[01:34] <wheels> mathrick: Well, and even if it was active, it's still another non-Qt, C API -- if you see where I'm going.
[01:35] <mathrick> wheels: yep, I get your point
[01:36] <mathrick> wheels: so, are there any serious complaints about gst? or just the usual "yuck, it's C" kind of stuff?
[01:36] Action: wheels notes that this would have all been made magnitudes easier if GStreamer was "FreeStreamer" or something...
[01:36] <mathrick> wheels: probably
[01:37] <wheels> mathrick: Well, no -- but in KDE those are pretty serious things.  KDE kind of has a history of replacing things that it doesn't like.  :-)
[01:37] <mathrick> wheels: but then, G in Gstreamer is really the same G as in glibc
[01:37] <wheels> mathrick: (And most people don't realize the complexity of "the multimedia issue")
[01:37] <wheels> mathrick: Well, I'm not sure that's a good thing.  :-)
[01:38] <wheels> mathrick: But that doesn't really matter -- it's a perception thing.
[01:38] <mathrick> wheels: hehe, replacing isn't particularly good for interoperability, is it
[01:39] <mathrick> wheels: also, I noticed some serious (or just loud enough) objections to fdo amongst kde guys, is it true?
[01:40] <sxpert> crap, mandrake is being ripped of it's name by united features syndicate...
[01:40] <wheels> mathrick: Well, but really -- the approach in KDE is that first KDE is the platform, interoperability is great, but not when it interferes with the first goal.
[01:41] <wheels> mathrick: Opinions are mixed on fd.o, people are sometimes worried about "KDE the platform" going away...
[01:41] <mathrick> wheels: I see, kinda "all your base" approach
[01:42] <wheels> mathrick: Well, sort of -- I mean all things being ideal, the most integrated desktop approach would be one where everything you needed used the same toolkit and components and whatnot.
[01:42] <wheels> mathrick: But it's just been recently that people are interested in expanding a bit too...
[01:43] <mathrick> wheels: sure, that's ideal, but then you could use windoze for that matter
[01:43] <wheels> mathrick: Well, understand I'm just describing now -- not really advocating.  :-)
[01:43] <wheels> mathrick: I can advocate as well, but that's less useful.
[01:43] <mathrick> wheels: I know :)
[01:44] <mathrick> wheels: funny thing is, GNOME started as an alternative to KDE being not ideal enough :)
[01:45] <wheels> mathrick: Well, the roots of GNOME came from folks already working around the GNU project -- KDE on the other hand was almost a completely new set of folks who wanted to do things the way they thought technically best and there's still a lot of that culture that has stayed.
[01:45] <wheels> mathrick: Often that means throwing out working tools because they don't fit a technical ideal.
[01:46] <wheels> mathrick: Well, and also Miguel was pissed off when his KDE patches were rejected.  :-)
[01:47] <mathrick> wheels: yes, GNU culture OTOH often means throwing out a tool if it doesn't align with some kind of guidelines
[01:47] <mathrick> wheels: I think it's HIG and all that that had much more impact than strictly what's written in there
[01:48] <wheels> mathrick: Well, GNU culture is mostly about the GNU platform, KDE culture was about the KDE platform in a certain sense.
[01:48] <mathrick> wheels: it's been radical shift of priorities, suddenly people realized how well standards can work out when adhered strictly
[01:48] <wheels> mathrick: GNU throws out things that aren't GNU-ified, KDE throws out stuff that aren't nice clean C++.  :-)
[01:49] <mathrick> wheels: hehe :)
[01:50] <mathrick> wheels: my favorite example of HIG in work is Love's comment on his gnome-volume-manager initial screenshot feedback. It wasn't "wow dude, it works automagically without polling", it was "hey, dude, you didn't follow the HIG" ;)
[01:50] <wheels> mathrick: But really -- that had a lot to do with the priorities too -- GNOME started to bring the GNU platform further; KDE was just built more on the idea of being a modern GUI development framework and environment for Unix.
[01:51] <wheels> :-)
[01:54] <mathrick> speaking of priorities - given that I have to wake up in 4.5hrs, i think it's priority for me to sleep now ;)
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[01:55] <mathrick> nite to y'all
[01:55] <mathrick> nick mathrick|sleep
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[01:56] <wheels> mathrick: g'night  :-)
[01:56] <mathrick> ah, crap
[01:56] Nick change: mathrick -> mathrick|sleep
[01:56] <mathrick|sleep> :)
[01:56] <lupusBE> I thougt the problem in the old days with kde was that qt had a not GPL license
[01:57] sublett ([email protected]) left irc: "I like food, food is good!"
[01:57] <lupusBE> that's why debian didn"t used it for a long while
[01:57] <wheels> lupusBE: That was only true until 1998.
[01:57] <wheels> lupusBE: And that's essentially why the FSF wanted GNOME to be started.
[01:58] <lupusBE> I thought in 2000 the license changed
[01:58] <lupusBE> of QT
[01:58] <lupusBE> k your right :)
[01:58] <lupusBE> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/1998/debian-devel-199811/msg01403.html
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[02:00] <wheels> lupusBE: Ah, yeah -- sorry -- I was thinking of when the FreeQt foundation was started.
[02:01] <wheels> lupusBE: (Which involved a change to get the QPL identified as a Free Software license and made an agreement that if Trolltech ever stopped developing Qt that it would be BSD'ed.)
[02:02] <lupusBE> in 1999 I installed my first linux distro :)
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[02:03] Action: wheels goes back a few more years, but I was a hard core FVWM user for many years.  :-)
[02:04] <lupusBE> I first had slackware 3.0.0 on a 386 xfree was slooooooow :)
[02:04] <lupusBE> xcalc took more then a minute to draw
[02:05] smoke ([email protected]) got lost in the net-split.
[02:06] <sxpert> lol
[02:07] <lupusBE> and redhat used gnome with enlightment that was verry slow on a PII and kde was quicker but crashed from time to time
[02:07] <lupusBE> the old days :)
[02:08] <sxpert> yeah, enlightenment is horrible
[02:08] <iain_> I had SuSE and with KDE in 98, and really I think it sucked
[02:08] <iain_> it just didn't feel nice
[02:08] <sxpert> I was a mandrake user at the time. KDE looked like s***
[02:08] <iain_> so I switched to fvwm for 6 months till I found this thing called enlightenment, and gnome :)
[02:08] <iain_> it just looked and felt ugly
[02:08] <lupusBE> kde is nice but I think because it has so many configure options it confuses newbie users
[02:09] <walters> i don't think gnome was much better looking at the time either
[02:09] <walters> E of course did look pretty :)
[02:09] <iain_> walters: ah, it was...I think
[02:09] <walters> well, obviously we're talking subjective opinions here :)
[02:09] <iain_> lupusBE: its amazing the amount of shit that is stirred up by people over pointless things though
[02:10] <sxpert> walters: E looked nice, but was (and still is, oh, the pain) slow as hell
[02:10] <iain_> lupusBE: see the flames that have resulted from the removal of a terminal shortcut from kicker
[02:10] <walters> sxpert: oh, totally agreed :)
[02:10] <lupusBE> lol :)
[02:10] <lupusBE> in my opinion kde and gnome can perfectly coexist
[02:11] <lupusBE> freedesktop makes this possible
[02:13] <lupusBE> so it doesn't mather who's best
[02:13] <lupusBE> nobody loves the same car or woman so :)
[02:17] <tvon> Everyone loves Angelina Jolie
[02:18] <tvon> Any man who says otherwise is a liar and a theif
[02:19] <lupusBE> hehe
[02:19] <lupusBE> gay people then?
[02:19] <lupusBE> :p
[02:19] <tvon> They do to, theyre just ashamed and wont admit it
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