Re: greetings...

On Mon, 2002-09-09 at 14:04, josh wrote:
> hello everyone, allow me to introduce myself.  i'm josh and for the past
> 5 years i've been a professional/corporate (see: slave) developer,
> primarily on enterprise software applications.  in the office i use java
> technologies and at home i use php.  

Welcome!


> one of the most important requirements of the project i'm working on is
> that i need control and flexibility in my page layouts.  encompass
> obviously supports this, but to what extent?  can i control what blocks
> are displayed on a per module basis?  when developing custom blocks and
> modules, can i use templates for layout, or am i bound to using (choke)
> the pnHTML api?  

You can control blocks on a per module basis...but this is not being
implemented until about 1.0.2 or so...I have played with the system and
it is indeed brings a new level of control not found in any other CMS.

Encompass does utilize templates. They are the .tpl files.

> 
> what appeals to me about encompass is that it is available today. 
> however, after reading the specs and various posts on blocklayout, i
> personally prefer its approach to templates over the encompass method.

I can write up a doc claiming that "X" system will do this, and do that.
However until the "talk" ceases and results are produced it is
speculation at best.

The only known publicly available installation of PN .8 utilizing
Blocklayout is available at (according to rumor that is):

http://mikespub.net/pn_800/index.php

If it indeed does utilize BL then it does not live up to even one one
gabillionth of the hype that surrounded it's announcement some 5-6
months ago. In fact it still uses the traditional three column layout
and does not do anything special that can't already be done with
Envolution (or PostNuke for that matter back to the .64 days) in terms
of layout.

One of the BL creators does not even run his own BL code on his personal
website:

http://www.thedragonsforge.com/

I don't even see anything remotely unique about the "project X" folks
website either..in fact as of today at 1430 EST I don't see where it
runs ANY CMS let alone BL.

http://www.dinerminor.com/

So the approach you have mentioned is nothing more than a concept which
is STILL not feasible today...and there is no indication, short of words
on a api file, that it can be in the future.

However on a more positive note you can break the three column layout
with the current Envolution solution. You can have as many columns as
you would like...we even ship an inside block location which is unique
to Encompass/Envolution. 

You can choose to have no columns, 3 columns, 2 columns, 10 columns, 100
columns or whatever you decide..all you have to do is create the
template to implement it and assign it a zone. Zones are the locations
on the page and the templates are the HTML that appear in the zone. You
can create new zones as well...as many or few as you require..the
limitation is your own ability and creativity.

However, the three column paradigm is a standard for good reason. Think
about it a little. Television screens are square or rectangular in
shape. I presume one could manufacture a totally round TV screen if they
wanted....but short of niche markets would the general population
receive it well...or even want it??

Motorcycles have a standard two axle/two wheel design. Sure there are
trikes out there for people with physical disabilities, and I'm sure
some simply like trikes. However the public expects and wants a two
axle/two wheel design on motorcycles.

A local tomato farm in central Indiana in conjunction with Purdue
University have found a way to grow tomato's that are the size of a
cantaloupe, however the public expext tomato's to be...well...the size
of tomato's.

Let's bring it back a little closer to internet related things for a
moment.

Web browsers, for the most part (repeat "for the most part"), render web
content based on published standards. This is because a set of standards
is required so that ALL people can view and retrieve information via the
internet in the manner it was intended to presented in. If we come up
with a non standard way of doing things would it be accepted and
embraced by the public as whole? Maybe and maybe not...but one thing is
very sure....changes should be gradual and spread out over a period of
time in order for any changes to be accepted..or even have a chance at
acceptance.

We used to have our Main Menu column relocated over to the right side of
the page..just left of the right block
location...(http://www.kindley.net/ to see what I mean) and we received
an enormous amount of feedback from our community that it was just too
different and that we should move it back to the "expected" location on
the page. 

A simple change in the layout created a negative backlash from the
community. So keep in mind that while change is good and inevitable it
does have consequences that many may not have considered if they view it
from a strict developer/designer/concept point of view and not consider
end user acceptance and expectations.

> anyway, just because it looks good on paper doesn't mean it's good in
> practice.  putting differences in philosophies and the exodus aside,
> what would you say are blocklayout's weaknesses?  and since i haven't
> done any experimenting with it myself, what could encompass do better?  

BL has no weaknesses! Something has to exist in order to have a weakness
or a strength. Encompass was thought up, created, and implemented in a
matter of weeks by 2 people (MH7 with Sentinel's help). BL was
conceptualized prior to May 2002 (most likely in early March) and to
this day some months later with 2 primary creators and a former army of
developers (about 35 to be conservative), cannot put together a working
BL demo site. The original demo site when BL specification version 4.0
was pulled real fast when people laughed at what it looked like, and
because it STILL looked like a three column site
(http://blocklayout.thedragonsforge.com/ which no longer exists)


> 
> i also have some questions regarding how envolution's development
> community will operate in terms of growth, internal processes, etc.  i
> read the vision document and it gave me somewhat of an idea, but i'm
> interested in further detail.  but i'm going to wait to post that set of
> questions, as i need more time to formulate them all. 

Ask away!

> 
> let me finish up by saying i'm excited about envolution.  i like its
> intended purpose of removing everything but infrastructure code from the
> core and making everything else pluggable.  that makes the most sense to
> me architecturally.  and i like that these mailing lists are populated
> with dedicated people who apparently like working together.  keep up the
> good work.  
> 
> thanks in advance, 
> josh 

We would be happy to have you aboard. This community is made up of some
of the best people of all CMS communities. However not that we do not
place developers above our end users like PN did. We believe that all
members of the community have an important role to play in overall
development. 

That is why we actively approach our membership instead of sitting back
in a reactionary position and deal with problems and issues...we try to
take a proactive approach and prevent those issues from becoming
critical. That doesn't mean we are perfect and it doesn't mean we won't
have failures...but judging a project on it's accomplishments is like
thinking "inside the box"...instead to get a sound appraisal of how well
a project is organized and works together look at the failures it
overcomes!! But that is my own personal opinion.

> 
> oh yeah, i tried signing up as a member on envolution.com and have not
> yet received my password.  can someone please take a look at this?
> 
Sure what uname did you subscribe as??? Email me privately and I will
fix this for you if you still have not received it.


Zoom