Re: greetings...

On Mon, 2002-09-09 at 16:45, josh wrote:
> hey scott, thanks for responding so quickly and verbosely.  allow me to
> respond in turn.
 
Your welcome!

> 
> > Encompass does utilize templates. They are the .tpl files.
> 
> i read the customization guide you wrote, however i was dead tired when
> i did so i might have missed the part that detailed how modules and
> blocks utilize .tpl's.  is there indeed a section on that document which
> covers how to do this?

It hasn't progressed to the level of each specific block or each
specific module has it's own template. Instead the skins/themes use the
templates it provides to render the look of the page with each
skin/themes having unique zones.

Right now this is a curious idea of having each block or module
containing it's own template. I do want to have that functionality but
really I have to question whether or not it is acceptable to have the
block or module developer determining what my site looks like with the
use of templates the block or module designer uses. At the very least
the end user would have to go back and edit those templates to match the
rest of the site.

Instead I personally think the theme/skin designers should handle the
look and layout based on the theme engine and let the block or module
developer concentrate on providing it's respective functions or service.
But that's just my opinion.

> 
>  
> > I can write up a doc claiming that "X" system will do this, and do that.
> > However until the "talk" ceases and results are produced it is
> > speculation at best.
> > 
> > The only known publicly available installation of PN .8 utilizing
> > Blocklayout is available at (according to rumor that is):
> > 
> > http://mikespub.net/pn_800/index.php
> > 
> > If it indeed does utilize BL then it does not live up to even one one
> > gabillionth of the hype that surrounded it's announcement some 5-6
> > months ago. In fact it still uses the traditional three column layout
> > and does not do anything special that can't already be done with
> > Envolution (or PostNuke for that matter back to the .64 days) in terms
> > of layout.
> 
> can't argue with that.  i'm still waiting to hear from people involved
> with its development on the current status of its implementation.  also,
> with both postnuke and projectx both pursuing the development of
> blocklayout, i'm confused on how all that's going to work.  i don't see
> how postnuke can continue development on it if all the core developers
> left.  

I believe I saw your post to the pn-dev list and I think it was
responded to that current PN peolpe are dropping BL in favor of a
different template driven theme engine called FastTemplates.

> 
> > 
> > One of the BL creators does not even run his own BL code on his personal
> > website:
> > 
> > http://www.thedragonsforge.com/
> 
> yeah, i believe he bailed on postnuke, didn't he?
> 

Yes he resigned.

> > 
> > I don't even see anything remotely unique about the "project X" folks
> > website either..in fact as of today at 1430 EST I don't see where it
> > runs ANY CMS let alone BL.
> > 
> > http://www.dinerminor.com/
> 
> nobody really knows what these guys are up to, as it appears that they
> are in a sort of stealth mode.  i had no intention of waiting for their
> release anyway.  i don't have that kind of time on my hands.  
> 

Closed development may work for them....doesn't work for most people I
know...but hey if that's what they want then ... cool by me.

> > 
> > So the approach you have mentioned is nothing more than a concept which
> > is STILL not feasible today...and there is no indication, short of words
> > on a api file, that it can be in the future.
> 
> well i won't argue the feasibility of it, considering my limited
> knowledge of the platform.  however, i'm inclined to believe that it
> would be feasible had there not been all the drama.  but feasibility
> isn't my concern, availability is.

Availability = 0, in terms of BL, so Feasibility = 0 as well. If it was
feasible don't you think that after so many months with a dev team of 35
members minimum would have produced something tangible?

The drama was unfortunate, but really, if drama affected development
then I would have to say that the developers who were "affected" by it
should have channeled energy into the code instead of rhetoric. It's
really too bad because had they produced something tangible it would
have shut the nay-sayers like me up.

The issue was never about the code really it was about the process the
code was supposedly developed from. That horse has been beat too
much...it's been proven that their leadership lied to the community
concerning BL and that the decision to go that direction was based on
agendas other than quality of code and community input. So I'll just
refer you to Postnuke.com to search the drama where you can decide for
yourself.

> 
> > 
> > However on a more positive note you can break the three column layout
> > with the current Envolution solution. You can have as many columns as
> > you would like...we even ship an inside block location which is unique
> > to Encompass/Envolution. 
> 
> yeah, i figured out that much.  it's what aroused my curiosity about
> your product in the first place. 
> 

Excellent!

> > 
> > You can choose to have no columns, 3 columns, 2 columns, 10 columns, 100
> > columns or whatever you decide..all you have to do is create the
> > template to implement it and assign it a zone. Zones are the locations
> > on the page and the templates are the HTML that appear in the zone. You
> > can create new zones as well...as many or few as you require..the
> > limitation is your own ability and creativity.
> > 
> > However, the three column paradigm is a standard for good reason. Think
> > about it a little. Television screens are square or rectangular in
> > shape. I presume one could manufacture a totally round TV screen if they
> > wanted....but short of niche markets would the general population
> > receive it well...or even want it??
> > ...
> 
> i appreciate the metaphorical lesson in UI design, but it wasn't all
> that necessary. luckily, sarcasm doesn't offend me and i actually
> laughed.

No sarcasm intended. Just reframing to help clarify some of the rhetoric
that has been spit out about the fabled "three column" layout. When
putting it into different situations to gain a different perspective
I've found that many people come to understand what the "three column
layout" issue really is.

So please don't think I was being sarcastic...I was definitely not using
sarcasm.

> 
> > Let's bring it back a little closer to internet related things for a
> > moment.
> > 
> > ...
> 
> while i'm in agreement with everything you mentioned in regards to
> content format and delivery, you didn't take into consideration that
> there instances when design elements, a horizontal bar for example, span
> the width of two or more columns in places other than the header or
> footer.  such is the case with the project i'm currently working on. 
> the UI is broken down into two main columns, but there are some design
> elements that need to span both of them.  follow me?  i also have a
> footer that spans both columns, and it must also contain 3 separate
> blocks as well.  my point is, you have to take into consideration that
> there is a lot of room for creativity, even within the constraints of
> published standards.

I follow, but I fail to see why you believe you can't have a bar across
the page underneath the header or footer. Now I have not actually edited
anything to accomplish this. But the creativity you mentioned is the
only thing that I can think of to prevent this.

> 
> > Ask away!
> 
> got any plans for establishing and documenting an internal development
> process, coding standards, QA process, etc?  listening to users and
> implementing feature requests is good, but how will the burden of doing
> so be managed?  how will priority be established?  it's understandable
> if you don't have those answers yet, it's a new team.  but what's your
> general feeling on how it will all work?

Yes. They have been established and the docs are available here:

http://www.envolution.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=listarticles&secid=5

some specifics like "if this happens, do this", or "code comments shall
be commented by /* */ instead of //" are not there because we are not
that rigid.

This is an open source project started and managed by people willing to
volunteer their time. If it was a corporation I could see having many
layers of abstraction.

"Internal development process", "coding standards" are handled by the
interim Project Manager which is MADHATter7.

Quality assurance processes are handled by the Lead Developer as well as
the Support Manager and of course all issues of quality are overseen by
every member of the community. Since every member has voice here. If
something is not right I want to know about it as well as everyone else
I suspect.

I and the other founders do not consider implementing end user feedback
as a "burden". We code for our community. This is definitely not a by
dev's for dev's community! One of the primary ways that we will and do
manage this is with a longer development cycle and a slower more
controlled growth rate. 

This will allow quality assurance the time to ensure quality, it will
also allow end users time to concentrate on content instead of upgrades,
it will allow third party developers to actually develop their code
instead of re-writing to meet yet another new API, and all that hasty
API implementations create.

Priority is established by consensus of the founders and the officers
with the founders ensuring that the non-developer issues and concerns
are given the same respect and consideration as technical code issues
commonly held by developers.

> 
> > Sure what uname did you subscribe as??? Email me privately and I will
> > fix this for you if you still have not received it.
> > 
> > 
> 
> on it's way...again, thanks for your response.  i'll be installing
> envolution later on today.  i'm sure i'll have lots to say about it. 
> until then!
> 
> cheers,
> josh

Again welcome to your new community...even if you choose to go with PN
or something else...you are always welcome here if nothing more than to
say hello!

Zoom