Re: [EP-underground] Re: The archival status of archived papers

Hmm. This a thorny issue. The problem with the current system of "cloned"
later versions is that while quite descriptive, it's confusing to users
and therefore bad. Possibly when a "later version" is submitted, it should
automatically move the earlier version to the "deleted" buffer.

On Tue, Dec 03, 2002 at 08:45:50 -0800, billn wrote:
> Suggestions are welcome...
> 
> I'd be very careful on this function because of prior discussions.
> Specifically, if this is an *archive*, then entries must not go away or
> change. Allowing multiple copies under a single link with versions would
> work if all versions remain available.
> 
> However, we also need to consider what is to be done by the author when,
> inevitably, the wrong paper, or a paper with a serious error is
> archived. Clearly this needs to be corrected for both reader and author,
> but changing it conflicts with the intent of the archive.
> 
> I don't mean for trivial word errors, but ones which make the paper
> incorrect thru some oversight of the author or editor during submission,
> which is not caught before archival. This should be a rare occurence,
> yet because of the potential impact on the author & institution, it must
> be corrected.
> 
> Here is my specific suggestion for this situation. Assuming a versions
> system is in place, I'd add a editor only comment field to each version
> that can be used to specify what has changed and why. To avoid trivial
> use of this, the author must convince the editor why the new version is
> necessary, which then becomes the Version Update field contents.
> 
> When a paper *must* be withdrawn from access due to eggregious error,
> security or copyright violation or other serious reason, the editor must
> convince the owner of the archive to do the withdrawal and make the
> appropriate entry in the Withdrawal Note field. 
> 
> By mandating (thru software) the next organizational level up in each
> case, this will prevent trivial use of the version or withdrawal
> function, and makes sure that misuse of these functions will be visible,
> and therefore only used when appropriate. 
> 
> Bill Nicholls
> http://www.billswrite.com
> 
> Christopher Gutteridge wrote:
> > 
> > I'm considering adding version control to the files. This is going to be
> > needed for the oft discussed j-prints (eprints with peer review)
> > 
> > I think for archives like ECS letting the author un-deposit then resubmit is
> > probably OK, but bad for cogprints. I'm considering adding it as an *option*
> > which the archive admin can enable/disable.
> > 
> > This is definitely a quality vs. quantity issue. ECS EPrints is already such
> > a state I don't think it can hurt. Cogprints is another matter.
> > 
> > Suggestions of a perfect(better) solution are more than welcome.
> > 
> > On Mon, Dec 02, 2002 at 07:40:34 +0000, Stevan Harnad wrote:
> > > On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, J Adrian Pickering wrote:
> > >
> > > > It isn't just a technical issue.
> > > >
> > > > If you follow Mark's solution you end up with the risk of people citing
> > > > papers that don't contain the information they cite anymore.
> > >
> > > Mark suggested that an archived article should be a persisting object,
> > > with a persisting identifier. That seems reasonable. Now if there have
> > > been several successive versions of a paper (which the author wants to
> > > consider as successive versions rather than new papers), then it also
> > > seems reasonable that the archive should link all the successive
> > > versions and point to the latest one by default.
> > >
> > > All the prior versions are preserved, and accessible (unless the archive
> > > has a policy allowing withdrawal -- a policy that should not be
> > > encouraged).
> > >
> > > It is the user's or citer's responsibility to specify which version they
> > > have used/cited, if there are more than one. That will become part of
> > > good scholarship, just as spelling the author's name correctly is.
> > >
> > > So we need both unique identifier for a generic paper and a unique
> > > identifier for a specific draft of that paper.
> > >
> > > > This is particularly likely when the matter being discussed is
> > > > controversial. A citation strictly refers to a manifestation/version
> > > > not the generic paper.
> > >
> > > Correct. It refers to a specific draft, usually with a calendar date and
> > > some other identifying features.
> > >
> > > > If the person making the citation wishes to change the citation to a later
> > > > version then that is *their* right. The link is *their* link, not the
> > > > target's. If you have 'published' something then it is in the public domain
> > > > and you must expect people to cite it (and that version).
> > >
> > > I mostly agree. But this seems to be covered by providing unique version
> > > identifies; it does not prevent the Archive from defaulting to the most
> > > recent version -- while offering the earlier versions too.
> > >
> > > It might be making a subtle difference in the view people are taking on
> > > this whether they are thinking of the Archive as a centralized one
> > > (rather like a journal) or a distributed institutional one (rather like
> > > author-provided reprints). It is conceivable that different drafts of a
> > > paper will be in different archives. Those distributed versions too,
> > > need to be trackable and integrated. My technical inexpertise leaves me
> > > unable to propose how to do this, but it is the hardest-case scenario,
> > > and the one we should aim to cover, eventually. Assuming it will all
> > > be in one central archive is probably unrealistic (and unnecessary, in the
> > > spirit of distributed OAI archiving and interoperability).
> > >
> > > To my layman's ear it sounds as if every version of a paper will need a
> > > unique version identifier, and in addition, there will need to be some
> > > interoperable ways of integrating different versions as being different
> > > versions of the same paper. The new scholarship will be, at the gross
> > > level, concerned only with citing the generic paper (without worrying
> > > about version fine-tuning), but the careful scholars need to have the
> > > option of specifying the version too, uniquely, for those cases where
> > > it matters.
> > >
> > > > I agree that archive items should persist and, therefore, the references to
> > > > them. The relationship between the versions should be issue to click
> > > > through too.
> > > >
> > > > Regards the 'user' query, they need to be told not to submit so many
> > > > versions i.e. *think* carefully before submission! This is a matter of
> > > > policy and governs the degree of 'resistance' there is to making
> > > > submissions. There needs to be some otherwise the quality level drop.
> > >
> > > It cuts both ways. Yes, authors should not start archiving willy-nilly
> > > every raw draft and every afterthought. But they should not feel
> > > constrained in doing corrections and updates whenever they are needed
> > > too. Authors should know, though, that from the moment they place a draft
> > > into a public open-access archive, it may be read, cited, and pointed to
> > > -- that specific draft -- in perpetuum. That is part of what it means
> > > to have archived something publicly.
> > >
> > > I'm sure scholars will easily get a sense for this, as they have for
> > > everything else. In the beginning some will fumble and treat the
> > > archive as labile first drafts or lapidary touch-me-nots, but experience
> > > and feedback will calibrate everyone's practice and reflexes. The
> > > Archives just have to make sure they do not pre-judge or short-circuit
> > > any important options a priori.
> > >
> > > Stevan
> > >
> > > > A/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >Stevan Harnad
> > > > >
> > > > >On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Mark Doyle wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Greetings,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tuesday, November 26, 2002, at 08:27  PM, Stevan Harnad wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now it is conceivable that the eprints architecture can be slightly
> > > > > > > modified, so that the old, suppressed URL for the deleted paper
> > > > > > > automatically redirects to the new draft if someone tries to access
> > > > > > > the old one. That I have to let Chris reply about. Here I have merely
> > > > > > > explained the rationale for not having designed the archive so a paper
> > > > > > > could be deposited, and then modified willy-nilly under the same URL.
> > > > > > > For that would not have been an archive at all, and user complaints,
> > > > > > > about trying to use and cite a moving target, would have far
> > > > > > > out-numbered
> > > > > > > depositor complaints about what to do with after-thoughts and
> > > > > > > successive
> > > > > > > drafts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, that is one way to look at it. On the other hand, arXiv.org uses
> > > > > > version numbers and the persistent name/id and URL (say hep-th/0210311
> > > > > > and http://arXiv.org/abs/hep-th/0210311) always points to the latest
> > > > > > version
> > > > > > with links to the earlier versions.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I believe you are advocating a poor design choice here. One cannot
> > > > > > overemphasize
> > > > > > the importance of human-friendly persistent names that are easily
> > > > > > converted
> > > > > > to URL's for linking and quick location. Patching the system to
> > > > > > redirect to the
> > > > > > latest linked version is a hack. Is one actually able to download
> > > > > > the earlier version (which is what was cited)? Generally, a better
> > > > > > approach
> > > > > > is to give a good persistent name to a "work" and not a single
> > > > > > manifestation
> > > > > > of that work (whether it be a particular format or a particular
> > > > > > version) and
> > > > > > then give a reader a single point of entry into the system that can be
> > > > > > bookmarked
> > > > > > or cited reliably which gives a choice of what to download. Cutting off
> > > > > > access
> > > > > > to an earlier, citeable version is a mistake. Archives should not
> > > > > > delete items
> > > > > > or make them hard to access - rather they should show items in context
> > > > > > and give easy access to an item's history and versioning with a single
> > > > > > identifier for the work taken as a whole.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > Mark
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mark Doyle
> > > > > > Manager, Product Development
> > > > > > The American Physical Society
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > 
> > --
> >     Christopher Gutteridge -- [email protected] -- +44 (0)23 8059 4833
> > 
> >                                                                   ,___O<
> >  _________________________________________________________________(___)____
> > |                                   |                                      |
> > | Now Playing: "" from -            | "Just once I'd like to learn a       |
> > |                                   | lesson without something exploding"  |
> > |                                   | - Malcolm in the Middle              |
> > |___________________________________|______________________________________|
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 Christopher Gutteridge                   [email protected]
 ePrints2 Coder, Support and Stuff        +44 23 8059 4833