Re: XML Syntax with Freemarker?

Monday, August 2, 2010, 2:52:06 AM, Jeremy Chone wrote:

> +1 for this one: "I still like the idea of an API rewrite and
> breaking backwards compatibility to fix some of the pain points."
>
> For me, the two biggest painpoint are "null support" support for
> full MAP support (right now, <String,Object> seems to be the only
> thing supported). Also, I would love to have GAE support in the main release.

2.4 and later will be GAE-compatible (plus we already have 2.3-gae for
a while). Note that 2.4 is pretty much like 2.3, the version number
increase is mostly only necessary because GAE-support breaks
backward-compatibility a bit. (What we earlier called 2.4 (which had a
preview release looong ago) is now 3.0.)

3.0 is null-aware, but it's release schedules are unsure at best.
However, I think the null-support is easy enough to backport, that in
the sad case where 3.0 doesn't make it, it can part of a 2.5 or
something.

Non-string key support needs a new type in FTL (so it would affect the
code on quite a few "deeper" places), but at least we can call that
new type "map", instead of "hash", and then make "hash" deprecated. So
I think as far as the object wrappers doesn't use that new type by
default, this can be added without waiting for a 2nd version number
increase. (Or do I miss something here?) However, I haven't seen any
commits yet that addresses this. /-: But the importance of the issue
is recognized.

> jeremy,
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 8:16 AM, Brian Pontarelli <[email protected]> wrote:
> I use FM for so much stuff like XML, HTML, JSON, text emails,
> XHTML, JavaScript, properties files, yaml, etc that it any other
> solution (Wicket, Sitebricks, GXP, etc) wouldn't work. FM really has
> a great design from the template perspective. I still like the idea
> of an API rewrite and breaking backwards compatibility to fix some of the pain points.
>
> -bp
>
>
>
> On Jul 31, 2010, at 1:40 PM, Jeremy Chone wrote:
>
> Personally, I like that freemarker is orthogonal to XML. It allows to do things like
>
> <div class="[#if fancyLook]fancy[/#if]" > ... </div>
>
> I have been a big fan and user of freemarker for quite some years.
> The problem with all the other template languages is that they are
> trying to be XML and/or jsp based. JSF s a great example of
> over-designed templating engine, which at the end reduce
> productivity and lower output quality. 
>
> Freemarker is very easy to customize and extends, and its
> "adhoc-style" allows to inline macro about anywhere. This is a big
> productivity boost compared to more [overly] structured template engines.
>
> Interestingly, even with the low release cycle, Freemarker is still
> the best templating engine out there (IMO). The responsiveness of
> this distribution list really has giving me me comfort that despite
> its low release cycle, Freemarker is still a safe bet. 
>
>
> Jeremy,
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 10:50 AM, Michael Cervenak Ahern <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi Daniel,
>
> Thanks for the quick response - I admit defeat on the fully
> conforming XML syntax.  Reading through your comments here and the
> archives in regards to GXP I see what you mean.  At some point it
> breaks down unless you are willing to fully split control flow logic
> out of the template language - at which point you have Wicket and lose simplicity.  Oh well.
>
> What got me going down this path in trying to generate XHTML
> markup.  At least for the book examples taking the top of page
> [#directives] and converting them into XML directives <?ftl-...?>
> seems to allow simple templates to be successfully loaded by an XML
> viewer... although I can't imagine that there is not some valid
> Freemarker syntax that  breaks the XML-ness.  This should be easy
> enough to find out using with a custom template loader - thanks for pointers.
>
> Regards,
> -Mike
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 3:44 AM, Daniel Dekany <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Saturday, July 31, 2010, 5:17:05 AM, Michael Cervenak Ahern wrote:
>
>> Ok,
>>
>> So this is a question / comment for the floor.  A problem that has
>> been bothering me with Freemarker and that is that you can't quite
>> create an Freemarker template that is also a valid XML document.  If
>> you are using it as a general text templating solution it is not a
>> problem - so far in our project we are using it for email templates.
>>
>> The problem area that had caused me to initially investigate the
>> project though is in the generation for providing plug points for
>> customer content customization of HTML markup.  In this role, I have
>> been looking at ways to reduce / catch developer and customer
>> errors.  One easy way to do this is if it supported an XML markup
>> notation.  One can almost do this with the square bracket notation
>> if you set square brackets as the default... however, I have noticed
>> that there are a couple of times where you still need to put
>> directives at the top of the template which break the XML ness.
>>
>> So to prove my point on catching errors; just take a look at the alternative syntax page itself:
>> http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/docs/dgui_misc_alternativesyntax.html
>> In this example it is missing (and I belatedly starting take notes so I apologize for any omission):
>> - 1 x </th>
>> - 2 x </td>
>> - 2 x </tr>
>> - 1 x </p>
>> - 2 x '/' in close element tag
>> I know this was a hastily written example - and I'd spot the error
>> (I hope) at runtime in the browser;
>
> These are not errors, as the template uses HTML, not XHTML. End-tag is
> optional for these elements in HTML.
>
>> but all of those errors would have been flagged by my syntax checker
>> while editing. Getting rid of the directives at the top and plopping
>> this in an XML editor still leaves one syntax error with the
>> placement of a [/#if].
>
> The #if is also used properly in the example; as they are not XML
> tags, but FTL tags, they don't need to nest properly with HTML tags.
> (Anyway I also don't like this kind of solution, because you repeat
> the condition expression, but that's another topic...)
>
>> As such a full blown XML markup does feel in order.
>>
>> Anyhow this is a super long winded question, but is there any
>> thoughts / plans around this?
>
> As of plans, there is practically no chance FreeMarker will ever be
> XML/HTML aware, or support an XML syntax. Like, first we had to push
> out 3.0, which is much less radical and much closed to completion, and
> still...
>
> As of thoughts (if you are still interested after the "plans"
> sections), I believe that a template language on the field where
> FreeMarker plays, should be (X)HTML-aware, and so even spot typos in
> HTML element names and like. Also it would need special flow-control
> instructions for making elements conditional with keeping their
> children, also there should be built-in ways to add/remove HTML
> attributes, etc. But as of using XML-syntax for the templating tags,
> it's IMO a PITA (and not doing that is one of the important selling
> points of FreeMarker over JSP), given the ridiculously verbose syntax
> of XML when used for a programming languages:
>
>  <t:if test="${exp}">
>
> VS
>
>  [#if exp]
>
> Surely using XML syntax editors could spot *some* of the typos in the
> template tags too, but I'm not sure that worths all the extra typing
> and the resulting visual bloat. If you only want to spot the errors in
> the static parts with an XML-editor, the best thing you can do is keep
> the templating constructs look like XML character-data, and that you
> can almost achieve with [#...]. Just almost, because you are in
> trouble if you want to make a HTML attribute conditional, or an
> element name to be a variable, etc. But there are work-arounds for
> those too... yeah, they are kind of awkward, but still.
>
>> I know Freemarker will never be GXP - however GXP appears dead...
>> long live Freemarker
>
> (Frankly, I'm puzzled how still no Java template engine of this kind
> appeared in so many years that mops the floor with FreeMarker. I mean,
> would any of us long-time "FM admins" here design an engine now, it's
> virtually impossible to do something that's not better than FM. I
> really just came here (like 10 years ago?) to help writing docs and
> suggest a few features that I needed (as I don't have time to write my
> own engine), and look where it went... And now I will be the one who
> has to have the bad conscience!   That's why I always have this
> burning desire to "beat" FM myself, but not the time/energy it
> seems...)
>
>> One thought around prototyping this once things quite down is to use
>> an XSL template and a custom template cache to look for '.xftl'
>> files that are transformed into standard .ftl files to rather than
>> cracking open the template parser code.
>
> That's actually the question of writing a TemplateLoader
> implementation (and the XSLT, of course). Only problem with it is that
> the error messages will be hard to understand, since those will refer
> to the already transformed templates.
>
>> While I'm still a ways from finding the time to do this - have there
>> been any thoughts in the past/present around what such a syntax
>> would look like?
>
> Yes, I think you will find some discussion in the archives.
>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> -Mike
>
> --
> Best regards,
>  Daniel Dekany
>
>
>
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> -- 
> Jeremy Chone
> +1 415 699 9912
>
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-- 
Best regards,
 Daniel Dekany


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