Re: [foaf-dev] Credentials Community Group
Tim Holborn <[email protected]> Fri, 1 Aug 2014 15:40:41 +1000
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.web.rdfweb |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--===============7151518560645445516== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1E21888D-8AD0-4443-B072-4CB337A7AC39" --Apple-Mail=_1E21888D-8AD0-4443-B072-4CB337A7AC39 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1256 IMHO - It=92s with misfortune that the identity problems emerge, to form = a situation that certainly deserves a response. Yet, fragmenting the = identity elements seems to meet failure. I think it is such a volatile = issue, that as yet - a considered response has not been endeavoured = effectively - which results in the continuing need to look at it. Bank and banking - require different capabilities. I think this may be = best deemed a format that is available to citizens should they seek to = act in a manner that is lawful or in compliance with their law (of the = state / place of citizenship? without taking into consideration factors = relating to =91choice of law=92 and people of other nations signing = agreements with internationally governed entities). FOAF works for Persona - incredibly well, imo. I appreciate the = technical purpose of using the term =91agent=92, yet i also appreciate = the legal definition, and the appropriation of the term more broadly = throughout society. ATM: it=92s legitimate to understand that your Internet Provider can = obtain an IP Request from a Website to effectively =91ping=92 the site. = When purchasing an Apple Product - it=92s linked to an online account, = with a credit card - which effectively furnishes a similar function.=20 Yet, a start-up web-business selling say - computer games on the web - = might end-up having their business threatened by =91charge-backs=92, = which in-turn stimulates some ideas around how to set-up AML (anti-money = laundering) / KYC (know your customer) capabilities, because they=92re = sick of sending games to scammers.=20 Yet - this is certainly more complex, and i=92m rather sure - an = appropriate solution is not defined yet. What=92s worse, is that = without a solution we=92ve ended-up (perhaps) with more problems, as = =91tracking=92 and other related =91functions=92 of what i think they = call =91big data=92, continually undermine privacy - without actually = providing any benefit to natural persons. So - whilst I apologise for the cross-posting - across these groups, = we=92ve got alot of people thinking about different parts or = constituents of identity and identity related services (including = pseudo-anonymity) and it seems reasonable to at least facilitate an = opportunity - to seek to get people working together on this very = important area of dev. On 1 Aug 2014, at 5:03 am, Peter Williams <[email protected]> = wrote: > seems VERY un-foaf >=20 > The memo sounds like all the same issues that folks used to talk about = in the pre-internet EDI world, which became the billion dollar PKI = boondoggle of the 2001 era web, and now seems to have re-surfaced in new = blob formats in the openid connect world - where all the same ideas are = being hashed for the 100th time in the last 30 years. >=20 > The very think Ive liked about foaf community it that is distinguished = itself from =93ALL THAT=94. it was speciifcally about the web citizen = wanting to surf (and who is not some governed entity, some government = id, some contracted service client, someone with this our or outrage = about some issue, =85). >=20 I=92ve certainly been outraged by a few issues. doesn=92t mean i=92m = seeking to deprive anyone of liberty, human rights, democratic = participation, etc. The unfortunate issue, is that some realities in = life are taboo - evil happens when good people, still watching, do = nothing. The capacities for =91web-citizens=92 - well=85 it=92s a = rather serious issue. we need different perspectives, from different = ends of the spectrum, to come-up with things that may not simply require = technical solutions in software code, but perhaps also - empowering = systems of government to examine issues, and come-up with solutions that = can help reinforce factors automated via software code. The ability for = someone to give each instance their personal attention - their personal = approval - is becoming less, and less relevant. The means to = deconstruct problems that emerge via automated systems, are equally = becoming more and more difficult. Regardless, we have shared values and = they=92ve been enshrined in documents - such as UN Human Rights = conventions - so it=92s not like we=92re starting from a blank canvas. = Regardless, the idea that someone owns IPR around how your identity is = recognised by law? identity issue, recognition of people issues have = some very terrible potential outcomes. I think we=92re looking to build = =91things=92 that help people grow to their fullest potential, in = contributing to man-kind, in their way - doesn=92t matter if they=92re = out giving soup to local homeless people, or standing on some stage = speaking of rights, dignity and opportunity. It starts to get = ideological from therein. =20 If systems are deployed that bind a persons identity via HTTP - then if = it=92s not made with the capacity to support pseudo-anonymity, i don=92t = think it matters which ontology you prefer. Fundamentally - their is a = difference between systems built for relational database methods; and, = those developed for graph database methods. I like many parts of the = world; but my passport and birth-certificate says i=92m Australian. I=92d= like to send an secured message that is date-stamped, in a manner that = makes it as useful as a patent document. I=92m sure other =91inventors=92= who don=92t have the ~500k to secure patent protection for different = forms of work would also like some other means for recognition. I=92d = also like to ensure that if an external influencer, not trackable by a = system - unreasonably damages a persons identifiers on the system - = means are defined in-order to reasonably figure things out. Equally, = those who have mental-health care issues - perhaps a bad period of time, = that shouldn=92t damage their capacity to be employed. Or means to = protect vulnerable people who are threatened or harmed by acts that are = illegal and materially damaging to others, but formerly perhaps - = without the interest - the technology never applied to help such people, = almost like an ideological decision. It=92s a complicated area. i see the need for the credentials = capability, but it needs to be well thought out, and i figured sending = this note might be a positive step rather than an ignorant or = thoughtless reception, to what i believe is a very complex area with a = gap-analysis that doesn=92t come-up with a very positive review. TimH.=20 > Sent from Surface Pro >=20 > From: Tim Holborn > Sent: =FDWednesday=FD, =FDJuly=FD =FD30=FD, =FD2014 =FD11=FD:=FD28=FD = =FDPM > To: Manu Sporny > Cc: foaf dev, [email protected], Web Payments CG, [email protected] >=20 > Hi Manu, >=20 > I=92m really pleased to see the initiative set-up to form a community = that=92s seemingly designed to focus on identity issues specifically, = rather than the use of identity in trade use-cases. Potentially a great = outcome. I=92m therefore hoping the notes below can be assessed, = considered and perhaps put into more cognoscente set of considerations = overall.. >=20 > I haven=92t seen any references supporting loosely coupled identifiers = (i.e. private associations between the proposed identity credential = tools - and psudo-anonymity / loosely coupled identifiers). >=20 > I refer back to = http://www.verisigninc.com/en_US/innovation/verisign-labs/speakers-series/= evolution-of-internet/index.xhtml (particularly @23minutes - but the = whole thing is good) >=20 > This in-turn relates to issues such as =91choice of law=92, when = signing-up to site services and an array of other more sophisticated = problems / considerations, that perhaps people generally could better = understand as a constituent of entering into any-such agreements.=20 >=20 > I also note that WebID and FOAF is not listed in the proposal, nor are = what i=92d term =91data-rights declarations=92 listed in the scope of = work. In terms of =92safety=92 (per the video above) or security, i = think the ability to include other identity related =91linked-data=92 = issues - such as methods for credential holders to make declaration = about the use-expectations for information/data provided to 3rd parties; = and, the ability to not require individuals to unnecessarily disclose = identity information. Inclusively providing means to beneficially = support protection of individuals, whilst still establishing new = identity related tools (which in-turn bring new safety issues for = web-users). In effect, a more holistic approach may benefit the = requirements (and/or intent) pursuant to other safety issues inclusive = to identity and authentication, whether explicit or implicit; and, as = described in precedent requirements such as KYC / AML.=20 >=20 > Without the use of identity for authentication - the identity = credential itself becomes useless. =20 >=20 > =92not everyone needs to know or see everything=92.=20 >=20 > It seems that the authentication principles (inc. systems) also form = important elements of the identity credentials lifecycle. I=92ve been = constructing concept of =91data rights=92, which has yielded some = interest already - and i=92m yet to find a technical home for it, though = i believe could fit in well to a W3 CG that=92s appropriately broad in = its considerations of personal identity requirements. =20 >=20 > Therein; some of the =91data rights' ontological concepts i=92ve = considered include, >=20 > Data:Reuse > Data:Accessibility > Data:Security > Data:Privacy > Data:Sovereignty=20 > Data:Storage >=20 > I note that in my research i=92ve found that organisations may suffer = from the costs incurred if / when privacy (or other) legislation is = passed by a state, incurring new obligations that in-turn need to be = enacted through DB related SYSADMIN tasks. therein, the capacity for = individuals to be presented with choices (perhaps also incentives for = different types of choices - i.e. join the loyalty program get 10% = discount, free-updates, etc.) assists all parties involved in the = transaction. I think in other instances, it=92s a bit like seeing = advertising your actually interested in - or ensuring the direct mail is = being received by people, not dumped into the virtual dumpster - which = is a waste of energy, if not to consider other issues therein. >=20 > Finally - these standards most affect individuals, who are not = ordinarily paid-up members of W3C. The membership of W3C in-turn have = fiduciary requirements around what they need, in-order to comply with = law. Due to the truly amazing behaviours, works and passion - arguably = for furthering humanity (can=92t think of a way to summarise it - i=92ve = started considering the concepts around how we all share WWW = citizenship..) the platform exists, as may not have been the case should = some of the initial decisions have been different.. The motivations = were designed to help organisations, by empowering people to communicate = more effectively. =20 >=20 > I find "Network Theory Seminar with Tim Berners-Lee=94 presentation = https://twitter.com/WebCivics/status/492707794760392704 (the = https://twitter.com/WebCivics/ will be resourcing an array of links = around this territory of consideration / =91web science=92) quite = grounding; and in-turn, we are certainly at a stage where identity, the = digital treatment of persons is a massive issue, on so very many levels. = This area is a can of worms. So my $0.02c (or currently about = 0.03488uBTC) would be that credentials is an element of identity and = personal permissions standards - or - regardless of the name - perhaps = your scope is a little too narrow, as to best serve the needs of its = intended beneficiaries. >=20 > - Authentication is required to create =91barriers=92 around someone = who is not you, =91authenticating=92 as you - on computing systems. > - Permissions are required so that we=92re not entrapping people into = things they=92re otherwise not required to do. > - Personal - is different from any act you make, in association to = others whether acting as an agent or a member of the community. >=20 > Identity is more broadly nebulous, a concept of study in many social = sciences / liberal arts - manifestly, something that is not digital or = binary. YET, we have credentials and identifiers, or 'footprints'=85 = We are legally recognised entities - or at least, we should be. =20 >=20 > inclusive concepts of course: include, the rights, privileges and = responsibilities of citizenship and social participation; yet, then it = starts to become more complicated. In this world, without economic = recognition - people can barely subsist.=20 >=20 > Access to justice for incorporated entities, vs. access to justice for = the majority of WWW citizens is not reasonably equal. large companies = and individuals have issues sharing intellectual property, without a = ledger - who knows who did what first; generally, the individual does = not have a legal department, yet equally perhaps they=92ve got some = strategy that could waste alot of time and shareholder money - or = perhaps, someone had a KPI that they found difficult to meet without = =91cutting corners=92. =20 >=20 > when dealing with identity - at this level no less - I think it=92s = imperative that we ensure the scope is defined in a manner that = holistically ensures =91duty of care=92, as we are able to discharge as = professional - community members - on a best-efforts basis, to make an = attempt that our work is defined in such a way that it seeks not = diminish the responsibility or opportunity of any party, to act in = good-faith and to maintain our responsibilities as citizens throughout = our affairs, including those in which we act as an authorised = representative and/or agent - for an incorporated entity.=20 > =20 > love it or hate it - most things that affect us has an economic = price-tag, whether that rational has been realised, is yet to become = realised or has become subject to barriers and may be unaccessible.=20 >=20 > FUNCTIONAL >=20 > I note an array of community initiatives. >=20 > https://webwewant.org/ > http://webfoundation.org/ > http://www.purpose.com/ >=20 > (noting that many others exist=85) >=20 > I=92m also working on this concept called =91web civics=92 which aims = to create events that link =91locals=92 with =91international experts=92, = help finish product produced by scientists such as those on these lists, = etc.=20 >=20 > I=92ve found that people are engaging me about these sorts of issues = and that the most interesting conversations are with people who are = consummate professionals, in different (and sometimes related or = complimentary) fields. I feel it=92s important to develop these = conversations, build social bridges. >=20 > Yet when it gets down to functional - the concepts need to be = converted into standards, and i believe supporting W3C Community group = works - is the best possible method to get that work done. Perhaps, = this is misguided - not sure. ATM i can see an array of different = groups looking at identity related issues. =46rom the persistent = messages about different crypto standards, to ontological debates, = messaging standards (i.e.: serialisation methods - turtle vs. json-ld), = etc. >=20 > underlying some of these issues is most likely a host of patent / IPR = issues, etc. >=20 > If,=20 >=20 > W3 participants specialised in this field - no matter where in the = ideological spectrum they=92re focused upon - can accumulatively = collaborate / cooperate - towards a standard that can support an array = of different use-cases (focused on the use of Linked-Data / RDF / = including decentralised web tech.) then, i believe the potential for = standards work could have enormously beneficial implications. >=20 > However - I equally understand that this may in-turn bring about a = resourcing issue. To which, a largely philosophical strategy might need = to be deployed in considering how these needs be met. =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 > On 31 Jul 2014, at 2:03 pm, Manu Sporny <msporny-FpEJLV8oj+AqgwVRcPComAC/[email protected]> = wrote: >=20 > For those of you that may have missed it in the minutes, we believe we > now have enough momentum to launch a Credentials Community Group at = W3C > to take over the identity/credentials use cases and technology that = this > group has been working on for a few years now. >=20 > There has been concern voiced that this group would be side-tracked by > much of the identity/credentials work. We now believe that we've found > some other organizations in the payments, education, and government ID > spaces that would like to lead the work (ensuring that the identity = use > cases related to payment continue to be supported). The proposed = charter > for that group is here: >=20 > = https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dPzWbPF0jlox8UHnr522nBWCjLJMQ_vGbbtsA5= -pAsg/edit >=20 > Please provide input on the charter. It's heavily modeled on the = charter > for this group (so if you like the way this group is run, you should > like the way that group is run). >=20 > The discussion around the formation of the group starts here: >=20 > https://web-payments.org/minutes/2014-07-30/#2 >=20 > -- manu >=20 > --=20 > Manu Sporny (skype: msporny, twitter: manusporny, G+: +Manu Sporny) > Founder/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc. > blog: The Marathonic Dawn of Web Payments > http://manu.sporny.org/2014/dawn-of-web-payments/ --Apple-Mail=_1E21888D-8AD0-4443-B072-4CB337A7AC39 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1256 <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html = charset=3Dwindows-1256"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">IMHO - = It=92s with misfortune that the identity problems emerge, to form a = situation that certainly deserves a response. Yet, fragmenting = the identity elements seems to meet failure. I think it is such a = volatile issue, that as yet - a considered response has not been = endeavoured effectively - which results in the continuing need to look = at it.<div><br></div><div>Bank and banking - require different = capabilities. I think this may be best deemed a format that is = available to citizens should they seek to act in a manner that is lawful = or in compliance with their law (of the state / place of citizenship? = without taking into consideration factors relating to =91choice of law=92 = and people of other nations signing agreements with internationally = governed entities).</div><div><br></div><div>FOAF works for Persona - = incredibly well, imo. I appreciate the technical purpose of using = the term =91agent=92, yet i also appreciate the legal definition, and = the appropriation of the term more broadly throughout = society.</div><div><br></div><div>ATM: it=92s legitimate to understand = that your Internet Provider can obtain an IP Request from a Website to = effectively =91ping=92 the site. When purchasing an Apple Product = - it=92s linked to an online account, with a credit card - which = effectively furnishes a similar = function. </div><div><br></div><div>Yet, a start-up web-business = selling say - computer games on the web - might end-up having their = business threatened by =91charge-backs=92, which in-turn stimulates some = ideas around how to set-up AML (anti-money laundering) / KYC (know your = customer) capabilities, because they=92re sick of sending games to = scammers. </div><div><br></div><div>Yet - this is certainly more = complex, and i=92m rather sure - an appropriate solution is not defined = yet. What=92s worse, is that without a solution we=92ve ended-up = (perhaps) with more problems, as =91tracking=92 and other related = =91functions=92 of what i think they call =91big data=92, continually = undermine privacy - without actually providing any benefit to natural = persons.</div><div><br></div><div>So - whilst I apologise for the = cross-posting - across these groups, we=92ve got alot of people thinking = about different parts or constituents of identity and identity related = services (including pseudo-anonymity) and it seems reasonable to at = least facilitate an opportunity - to seek to get people working together = on this very important area of dev.</div><div><br><div><div>On 1 Aug = 2014, at 5:03 am, Peter Williams <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>> = wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote = type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; = font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; = text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: = normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: = 0px;"><div data-externalstyle=3D"false" dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family: = Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei = UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div>seems VERY = un-foaf</div><div><br></div><div>The memo sounds like all the same = issues that folks used to talk about in the pre-internet EDI = world, which became the billion dollar PKI boondoggle of the 2001 = era web, and now seems to have re-surfaced in new blob formats in the = openid connect world - where all the same ideas are being hashed for the = 100th time in the last 30 years.</div><div><br></div><div>The very think = Ive liked about foaf community it that is distinguished itself = from =93ALL THAT=94. it was speciifcally about the web citizen = wanting to surf (and who is not some governed entity, some government = id, some contracted service client, someone with this our or outrage = about some issue, =85).<br></div><div = data-signatureblock=3D"true"><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote= ><div><br></div>I=92ve certainly been outraged by a few issues. = doesn=92t mean i=92m seeking to deprive anyone of liberty, human = rights, democratic participation, etc. The unfortunate issue, is = that some realities in life are taboo - evil happens when good people, = still watching, do nothing. The capacities for =91web-citizens=92 = - well=85 it=92s a rather serious issue. we need different = perspectives, from different ends of the spectrum, to come-up with = things that may not simply require technical solutions in software code, = but perhaps also - empowering systems of government to examine issues, = and come-up with solutions that can help reinforce factors automated via = software code. The ability for someone to give each instance their = personal attention - their personal approval - is becoming less, and = less relevant. The means to deconstruct problems that emerge via = automated systems, are equally becoming more and more difficult. = Regardless, we have shared values and they=92ve been enshrined in = documents - such as UN Human Rights conventions - so it=92s not like = we=92re starting from a blank canvas. Regardless, the idea that = someone owns IPR around how your identity is recognised by law? = identity issue, recognition of people issues have some very = terrible potential outcomes. I think we=92re looking to build = =91things=92 that help people grow to their fullest potential, in = contributing to man-kind, in their way - doesn=92t matter if they=92re = out giving soup to local homeless people, or standing on some stage = speaking of rights, dignity and opportunity. It starts to get = ideological from therein. </div><div><br></div><div>If systems are = deployed that bind a persons identity via HTTP - then if it=92s not made = with the capacity to support pseudo-anonymity, i don=92t think it = matters which ontology you prefer. Fundamentally - their is a = difference between systems built for relational database methods; and, = those developed for graph database methods. I like many parts of = the world; but my passport and birth-certificate says i=92m Australian. = I=92d like to send an secured message that is date-stamped, in a = manner that makes it as useful as a patent document. I=92m sure = other =91inventors=92 who don=92t have the ~500k to secure patent = protection for different forms of work would also like some other means = for recognition. I=92d also like to ensure that if an external = influencer, not trackable by a system - unreasonably damages a persons = identifiers on the system - means are defined in-order to reasonably = figure things out. Equally, those who have mental-health care = issues - perhaps a bad period of time, that shouldn=92t damage their = capacity to be employed. Or means to protect vulnerable people who = are threatened or harmed by acts that are illegal and materially = damaging to others, but formerly perhaps - without the interest - the = technology never applied to help such people, almost like an ideological = decision.</div><div><br></div><div>It=92s a complicated area. i = see the need for the credentials capability, but it needs to be well = thought out, and i figured sending this note might be a positive step = rather than an ignorant or thoughtless reception, to what i believe is a = very complex area with a gap-analysis that doesn=92t come-up with a very = positive = review.</div><div><br></div><div>TimH. </div><div><br></div><div><blo= ckquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; = font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: = normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; = text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: = normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: = 0px;"><div data-externalstyle=3D"false" dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family: = Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei = UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div = data-signatureblock=3D"true"><div>Sent from Surface = Pro</div><div><br></div></div><div style=3D"padding-top: 5px; = border-top-color: rgb(229, 229, 229); border-top-width: 1px; = border-top-style: solid;"><font face=3D" 'Calibri', 'Segoe UI', = 'Meiryo', 'Microsoft YaHei UI', 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun = Gothic', 'sans-serif'" style=3D"line-height: 15pt; letter-spacing: = 0.02em; font-family: Calibri, 'Segoe UI', Meiryo, 'Microsoft YaHei UI', = 'Microsoft JhengHei UI', 'Malgun Gothic', sans-serif; font-size: = 12pt;"><b>From:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_parent">Tim Holborn</a><br><b>Sent:</b> =FDWednesday=FD, = =FDJuly=FD =FD30=FD, =FD2014 =FD11=FD:=FD28=FD =FDPM<br><b>To:</b> <a= href=3D"mailto:msporny-FpEJLV8oj+AqgwVRcPComAC/[email protected]" target=3D"_parent">Manu = Sporny</a><br><b>Cc:</b> <a = href=3D"mailto:foaf-dev-RyYwo1q5J+qsOXdr9/[email protected]" target=3D"_parent">foaf = dev</a>,<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_parent">[email protected]</a>,<span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_parent">Web = Payments CG</a>,<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_parent">[email protected]</a></font></div><div><br></div><div = dir=3D"">Hi Manu,<div><br></div><div>I=92m really pleased to see the = initiative set-up to form a community that=92s seemingly designed to = focus on identity issues specifically, rather than the use of identity = in trade use-cases. Potentially a great outcome. I=92m = therefore hoping the notes below can be assessed, considered and perhaps = put into more cognoscente set of considerations = overall..</div><div><br></div><div>I haven=92t seen any references = supporting loosely coupled identifiers (i.e. private associations = between the proposed identity credential tools - and psudo-anonymity / = loosely coupled identifiers).</div><div><br></div><div>I refer back = to <a = href=3D"http://www.verisigninc.com/en_US/innovation/verisign-labs/speakers= -series/evolution-of-internet/index.xhtml" = target=3D"_parent">http://www.verisigninc.com/en_US/innovation/verisign-la= bs/speakers-series/evolution-of-internet/index.xhtml</a> = (particularly @23minutes - but the whole thing is = good)</div><div><br></div><div>This in-turn relates to issues such as = =91choice of law=92, when signing-up to site services and an array of = other more sophisticated problems / considerations, that perhaps people = generally could better understand as a constituent of entering into = any-such agreements. </div><div><br></div><div>I also note that = WebID and FOAF is not listed in the proposal, nor are what i=92d term = =91data-rights declarations=92 listed in the scope of work. In = terms of =92safety=92 (per the video above) or security, i think the = ability to include other identity related =91linked-data=92 issues - = such as methods for credential holders to make declaration about the = use-expectations for information/data provided to 3rd parties; and, the = ability to not require individuals to unnecessarily disclose identity = information. Inclusively providing means to beneficially support = protection of individuals, whilst still establishing new identity = related tools (which in-turn bring new safety issues for web-users). = In effect, a more holistic approach may benefit the requirements = (and/or intent) pursuant to other safety issues inclusive to identity = and authentication, whether explicit or implicit; and, as described in = precedent requirements such as KYC / = AML. </div><div><br></div><div>Without the use of identity for = authentication - the identity credential itself becomes useless. = </div><div><br></div><div>=92not everyone needs to know or = see everything=92. </div><div><br></div><div>It seems that the = authentication principles (inc. systems) also form important elements of = the identity credentials lifecycle. I=92ve been constructing concept of = =91data rights=92, which has yielded some interest already - and i=92m = yet to find a technical home for it, though i believe could fit in well = to a W3 CG that=92s appropriately broad in its considerations of = personal identity requirements. </div><div><br></div><div>Therein; = some of the =91data rights' ontological concepts i=92ve considered = include,</div><div><br></div><div><div>Data:Reuse</div><div>Data:Accessibi= lity</div><div>Data:Security</div><div>Data:Privacy</div><div>Data:Soverei= gnty </div><div>Data:Storage</div></div><div><br></div><div>I note = that in my research i=92ve found that organisations may suffer from the = costs incurred if / when privacy (or other) legislation is passed by a = state, incurring new obligations that in-turn need to be enacted through = DB related SYSADMIN tasks. therein, the capacity for individuals to be = presented with choices (perhaps also incentives for different types of = choices - i.e. join the loyalty program get 10% discount, free-updates, = etc.) assists all parties involved in the transaction. I think in = other instances, it=92s a bit like seeing advertising your actually = interested in - or ensuring the direct mail is being received by people, = not dumped into the virtual dumpster - which is a waste of energy, if = not to consider other issues therein.</div><div><br></div><div>Finally - = these standards most affect individuals, who are not ordinarily paid-up = members of W3C. The membership of W3C in-turn have fiduciary = requirements around what they need, in-order to comply with law. = Due to the truly amazing behaviours, works and passion - arguably = for furthering humanity (can=92t think of a way to summarise it - i=92ve = started considering the concepts around how we all share WWW = citizenship..) the platform exists, as may not have been the case should = some of the initial decisions have been different.. The = motivations were designed to help organisations, by empowering people to = communicate more effectively. </div><div><br></div><div>I find = "Network Theory Seminar with Tim Berners-Lee=94 presentation <a = href=3D"https://twitter.com/WebCivics/status/492707794760392704" = target=3D"_parent">https://twitter.com/WebCivics/status/492707794760392704= </a> (the<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a = href=3D"https://twitter.com/WebCivics/" = target=3D"_parent">https://twitter.com/WebCivics/</a><span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>will be resourcing an array = of links around this territory of consideration / =91web science=92) = quite grounding; and in-turn, we are certainly at a stage where = identity, the digital treatment of persons is a massive issue, on so = very many levels. This area is a can of worms. So my $0.02c = (or currently about 0.03488uBTC) would be that credentials is an element = of identity and personal permissions standards - or - regardless of the = name - perhaps your scope is a little too narrow, as to best serve the = needs of its intended beneficiaries.</div><div><br></div><div>- = Authentication is required to create =91barriers=92 around someone who = is not you, =91authenticating=92 as you - on computing = systems.</div><div>- Permissions are required so that we=92re not = entrapping people into things they=92re otherwise not required to = do.</div><div>- Personal - is different from any act you make, in = association to others whether acting as an agent or a member of the = community.</div><div><br></div><div>Identity is more broadly nebulous, a = concept of study in many social sciences / liberal arts - manifestly, = something that is not digital or binary. YET, we have credentials = and identifiers, or 'footprints'=85 We are legally recognised = entities - or at least, we should be. = </div><div><br></div><div>inclusive concepts of course: include, = the rights, privileges and responsibilities of citizenship and social = participation; yet, then it starts to become more complicated. In = this world, without economic recognition - people can barely = subsist. </div><div><br></div><div>Access to justice for = incorporated entities, vs. access to justice for the majority of WWW = citizens is not reasonably equal. large companies and individuals have = issues sharing intellectual property, without a ledger - who knows who = did what first; generally, the individual does not have a legal = department, yet equally perhaps they=92ve got some strategy that could = waste alot of time and shareholder money - or perhaps, someone had a KPI = that they found difficult to meet without =91cutting corners=92. = </div><div><br></div><div>when dealing with identity - at this = level no less - I think it=92s imperative that we ensure the scope is = defined in a manner that holistically ensures =91duty of care=92, as we = are able to discharge as professional - community members - on a = best-efforts basis, to make an attempt that our work is defined in such = a way that it seeks not diminish the responsibility or opportunity of = any party, to act in good-faith and to maintain our responsibilities as = citizens throughout our affairs, including those in which we act as an = authorised representative and/or agent - for an incorporated = entity. </div><div> </div><div>love it or hate it - most = things that affect us has an economic price-tag, whether that rational = has been realised, is yet to become realised or has become subject to = barriers and may be = unaccessible. </div><div><br></div><div>FUNCTIONAL</div><div><br></di= v><div>I note an array of community = initiatives.</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://webwewant.org/" = target=3D"_parent">https://webwewant.org/</a></div><div><a = href=3D"http://webfoundation.org/" = target=3D"_parent">http://webfoundation.org/</a></div><div><a = href=3D"http://www.purpose.com/" = target=3D"_parent">http://www.purpose.com/</a></div><div><br></div><div>(n= oting that many others exist=85)</div><div><br></div><div>I=92m also = working on this concept called =91web civics=92 which aims to create = events that link =91locals=92 with =91international experts=92, help = finish product produced by scientists such as those on these lists, = etc. </div><div><br></div><div>I=92ve found that people are = engaging me about these sorts of issues and that the most interesting = conversations are with people who are consummate professionals, in = different (and sometimes related or complimentary) fields. I feel = it=92s important to develop these conversations, build social = bridges.</div><div><br></div><div>Yet when it gets down to functional - = the concepts need to be converted into standards, and i believe = supporting W3C Community group works - is the best possible method to = get that work done. Perhaps, this is misguided - not sure. = ATM i can see an array of different groups looking at identity = related issues. =46rom the persistent messages about different = crypto standards, to ontological debates, messaging standards (i.e.: = serialisation methods - turtle vs. json-ld), = etc.</div><div><br></div><div>underlying some of these issues is most = likely a host of patent / IPR issues, = etc.</div><div><br></div><div>If, </div><div><br></div><div>W3 = participants specialised in this field - no matter where in the = ideological spectrum they=92re focused upon - can accumulatively = collaborate / cooperate - towards a standard that can support an array = of different use-cases (focused on the use of Linked-Data / RDF / = including decentralised web tech.) then, i believe the potential for = standards work could have enormously beneficial = implications.</div><div><br></div><div>However - I equally = understand that this may in-turn bring about a resourcing issue. = To which, a largely philosophical strategy might need to be = deployed in considering how these needs be met. = </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> <br><d= iv><div>On 31 Jul 2014, at 2:03 pm, Manu Sporny <<a = href=3D"mailto:msporny-FpEJLV8oj+AqgwVRcPComAC/[email protected]" = target=3D"_parent">msporny-FpEJLV8oj+AqgwVRcPComAC/[email protected]</a>> wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: = 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">For those of you that may have missed it in = the minutes, we believe we<br>now have enough momentum to launch a = Credentials Community Group at W3C<br>to take over the = identity/credentials use cases and technology that this<br>group has = been working on for a few years now.<br><br>There has been concern = voiced that this group would be side-tracked by<br>much of the = identity/credentials work. We now believe that we've found<br>some other = organizations in the payments, education, and government ID<br>spaces = that would like to lead the work (ensuring that the identity = use<br>cases related to payment continue to be supported). The proposed = charter<br>for that group is here:<br><br><a = href=3D"https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dPzWbPF0jlox8UHnr522nBWCjLJMQ_= vGbbtsA5-pAsg/edit" = target=3D"_parent">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dPzWbPF0jlox8UHnr52= 2nBWCjLJMQ_vGbbtsA5-pAsg/edit</a><br><br>Please provide input on the = charter. It's heavily modeled on the charter<br>for this group (so if = you like the way this group is run, you should<br>like the way that = group is run).<br><br>The discussion around the formation of the group = starts here:<br><br><a = href=3D"https://web-payments.org/minutes/2014-07-30/#2">https://web-paymen= ts.org/minutes/2014-07-30/#2</a><br><br>-- manu<br><br>--<span = class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>Manu Sporny (skype: = msporny, twitter: manusporny, G+: +Manu Sporny)<br>Founder/CEO - Digital = Bazaar, Inc.<br>blog: The Marathonic Dawn of Web Payments<br><a = href=3D"http://manu.sporny.org/2014/dawn-of-web-payments/">http://manu.spo= rny.org/2014/dawn-of-web-payments/</a></blockquote></div></div></div></div= ></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>= --Apple-Mail=_1E21888D-8AD0-4443-B072-4CB337A7AC39-- --===============7151518560645445516== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ foaf-dev mailing list foaf-dev-RyYwo1q5J+qsOXdr9/[email protected] http://lists.foaf-project.org/mailman/listinfo/foaf-dev --===============7151518560645445516==--