Minutes, 14 December 2006 WS Description WG telcon
"Jonathan Marsh" <[email protected]>
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Enclosed. Jonathan Marsh - <http://www.wso2.com> http://www.wso2.com - <http://auburnmarshes.spaces.live.com> http://auburnmarshes.spaces.live.com
20061214-ws-desc-minutes.html
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<h1>- DRAFT -</h1>
<h1>WS Description WG telcon</h1>
<h2>14 Dec 2006</h2>
<p>See also: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/14-ws-desc-irc">IRC log</a></p>
<h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>
<div class="intro">
<dl>
<dt>Present</dt>
<dd>Charlton Baretto, Adobe Systems</dd>
<dd>Allen Brookes, Rogue Wave Software</dd>
<dd>Roberto Chinnici, Sun Microsystems</dd>
<dd>Paul Downey, British Telecommunications</dd>
<dd>Youenn Fablet, Canon</dd>
<dd>Jacek Kopecky, DERI Innsbruck at the Leopold-Franzens-Universität Innsbruck, Austria</dd>
<dd>Amelia Lewis, TIBCO</dd>
<dd>Philippe Le Hegaret, W3C</dd>
<dd>Jonathan Marsh, Co-chair/WSO2</dd>
<dd>Monica Martin, Sun Microsystems</dd>
<dd>Jean-Jacques Moreau, Canon</dd>
<dd>Gilbert Pilz, BEA Systems</dd>
<dd>Tony Rogers, Co-chair/Computer Associates</dd>
<dd>Arthur Ryman, IBM</dd>
<dd>Asir Vedamuthu, Microsoft</dd>
<dt>Regrets</dt>
<dt>Chair</dt>
<dd>Jonathan</dd>
<dt>Scribe</dt>
<dd>JacekK</dd>
</dl>
</div>
<h2>Contents</h2>
<ul>
<li>
<a href="#agenda">Topics</a>
<ol>
<li><a href="#item01">approval of minutes</a></li>
<li><a href="#item02">action items</a></li>
<li><a href="#item03">Administrivia</a></li>
<li><a href="#item04">MTOM description</a></li>
<li><a href="#item05">Issue CR098</a></li>
<li><a href="#item06">issue CR099</a></li>
<li><a href="#item07">Issue CR108</a></li>
<li><a href="#item08">CR109</a></li>
<li><a href="#item09">CR110</a></li>
<li><a href="#item10">CR111</a></li>
<li><a href="#item11">CR112</a></li>
<li><a href="#item12">CR113</a></li>
</ol>
</li>
<li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
</ul>
<hr />
<div class="meeting">
<a name="action01" id="action01"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Jonathan</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Jonathan to fix transferCodings - add
control group. [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/14-ws-desc-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/14-ws-desc-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Jonathan</cite>> <a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ws/desc/test-suite/Dashboard.html">
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ws/desc/test-suite/Dashboard.html</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>> scribe: JacekK</p>
<h3 id="item01">approval of minutes</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>minutes:</cite> <a href=
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2006Dec/att-0032/20061207-ws">
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2006Dec/att-0032/20061207-ws-desc-minutes.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: minutes
approved</strong></p>
<h3 id="item02">action items</h3>
<pre>--------------------------------------------------------------------
3. Review of Action items [.1].
[Interop]
? 2006-11-30: [interop] John Kaputin to create a test case
with "required=false".
[WG]
CONTINUE 2006-09-21: Jonathan to check periodically that SPARQL has added
schemaLocation.
? 2006-10-12: pdowney to review the Schema WG note on versioning
in 1.1.
DONE [.3] 2006-11-30: Jonathan will propose a plan for publishing
component model interchange format as a note.
DONE [.4] 2006-11-30: Charlton to review WS-Policy LC.
DONE [.5] 2006-12-07: Asir to open a WS-Policy issue and link it with
CR80.
DONE [.6] 2006-12-07: Arthur to look at CR098.
DONE [.7] 2006-12-07: Arthur to look at CR099.
DONE [.8] 2006-12-07: Amy to write a proposal for CR108.
Current Editorial Action Items
Note: Editorial AIs associated with LC issues recorded at [.2].
[.1] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/#actions
[.2] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/5/cr-issues/actions_owner.html
[.3]
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ws/desc/wsdl20/wsdl20-interchange-f
ormat.xml?content-type=application/xml
[.4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2006Dec/0055.html
[.5] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2006Dec/0051.html
[.6] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2006Dec/0052.html
[.7] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2006Dec/0053.html
[.8] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2006Dec/0033.html
</pre>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> we shouldn't spend time
on component model interchange document before January</p>
<h3 id="item03">Administrivia</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> membership of Vivek was
corrected in WBS<br />
... how many people won't make it next week?</p>
<p class='phone'>regrets from Asir, JacekK, Roberto?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>asir:</cite> please move WS-Policy
comments to the telcon after next so I don't miss it</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> we can discuss it some,
but let's postpone actualy resolutions<br />
... thanks to charlton for submitting policy review, to be
discussed next week and later<br />
... databinding not yet reviewed, time until Jan 12</p>
<h3 id="item04">MTOM description</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> is there something we
can do now to move this topic ahead?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jjm:</cite> probably disregard my latest
message<br />
... are we waiting for XMLP WG now?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> haven't heard from
Philippe in some time<br />
... two possible approaches - 1) dual-purpose wsdl extension
and policy assertion<br />
... 2) how would it work with WSDL - direct extension,
policy... does it introduce critical dependency on
policy?<br />
... it would be useful what Canon's high-level requirements are
on this<br />
... to get a feeling about whether it can be just a policy or
something else</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jjm:</cite> 1) we need MTOM in WSDL
soon, would like to have interop<br />
... or a way to upgrade later<br />
... 2) we don't plan to support WS-Policy</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>asir:</cite> do you expect interop with
a WSDL extension?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jjm:</cite> I don't know what's
happening regarding MTOM in Policy</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>plh:</cite> XMLP will work on this as
soon as they are allowed to do so, that's should be very
soon<br />
... "this" meaning MTOM assertion</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>pauld</cite>> WS-Policy is in the
W3C, has widespread support and as we have demonstrated has a
simple syntax for applying assertions. What's not to like?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jjm:</cite> can we describe MTOM in WSDL
using policy without having to support full policy?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> there may be a profile
of policy that would satisfy everyone</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jjm:</cite> many embedded applications
don't have resources for support for compositors</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>plh:</cite> simplest policy is
<policy><mtom/></policy> - your impl can
reject anything more complex</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>asir:</cite> it might be easy to look
into the policy to see if mtom is there, then do it</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>plh:</cite> there'd be more complexity,
but it could be usefully doable</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> let's move to
issues</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>asir:</cite> if we're talking about a
profile, would we need to do it formally, with a recharter?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>plh:</cite> we don't need to document it
formally here, maybe Canon could just put it in their docs as a
limitation</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jjm:</cite> I'd prefer a W3 spec to
describe this</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> the primer showed it
using f&p, but it can do the same using policy<br />
... with options of showing full policy support, or just a
subset for only MTOM</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jjm:</cite> I was assuming we had a
stronger (than primer) support for MTOM<br />
... I discovered later that we didn't, only in the primer</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>asir</cite>> Use of MTOM assertion
+ WSDL 20 is well described at <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-ws-policy-attach-20061117/#wsdl20-example">
http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-ws-policy-attach-20061117/#wsdl20-example</a></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> so you would like WSDL
to add description of MTOM sufficient to guarantee interop?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Arthur:</cite> does anything need to be
done in policy spec to support this usage with MTOM?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>asir:</cite> no, I don't think so</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Arthur:</cite> the primer would be a
good place for this then</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> jjm may not agree, but
let's move on for now</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>plh:</cite> we should add an example,
but that's all because other groups are specifying it
normatively<br />
... and we can mention a subset of policy, but not specify
it<br />
... would a policy with only the MTOM assertion in it solve
your problem?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jjm:</cite> maybe not</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>plh:</cite> this would not only work for
you, it would also work for others who do support policy</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> jjm should clarify the
maybe not</p>
<h3 id="item05">Issue CR098</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> Types-1300002 doesn't
seem to be an assertion</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Arthur:</cite> I agree, we should clean
up the sentence and remove assertion mark up</p>
<p class='phone'>Jonathan reads the poetry suggested by
Arthur</p>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: accept
Arthur's proposal</strong></p>
<h3 id="item06">issue CR099</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> Types-1300003 doesn't
seem to be an assertion<br />
... similar problem here</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Arthur:</cite> if a statement is not an
assertion, I make it a note and remove uppercase keywords</p>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: accept
Arthur's proposal as well</strong></p>
<h3 id="item07">Issue CR108</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> two assertions seem (to
lawrence) to be duplicate</p>
<p class='phone'>Jonathan reads the spec poetry</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Arthur:</cite> the two statements are
logically equivalent - negating the first gives the
second<br />
... they have the same truth tables</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> one expresses a
dependency, other co-constraint, same intent, first one seems
easier to read</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Arthur:</cite> I'd suggest a symmetrical
wording</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> amy suggests to remove
the last assertion<br />
... it's not prohibited for a binding op to have an output if
the interface op doesn't have it<br />
... should MessageLabel-0014 be stricken?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>alewis:</cite> it's not only duplicate,
it's unreachable, you violate stuff much earlier trying to get
there<br />
... but only one should be removed, it's not an exact
duplicate<br />
... that's 0014<br />
... the assertion in 2.10.1 says each binding message reference
must uniquely refer to an interface msg ref</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Arthur:</cite> if 0006 and 0014 are
equivalent, both should be striken</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>alewis:</cite> they're not
equivalent<br />
... 0014 is subsumed by the one in 2.10.1<br />
... we don't even have a test case because we don't have a
suitable MEP</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Arthur:</cite> they're the same</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>alewis:</cite> they're not</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Arthur:</cite> are too!<br />
... let's get this offline and compare our reasoning<br />
... if they're equivalent, both should be removed</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Roberto:</cite> we can first settle the
equivalence, then we can see if we should remove both</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>alewis:</cite> there is the same pattern
elsewhere as well</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> let's give an action to
somebody to analyze this</p><a name="action02" id=
"action02"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Arthur to examine the equivalence of
0006 and 0014 [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/14-ws-desc-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/14-ws-desc-minutes.html#action02</a>]</p>
<h3 id="item08">CR109</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> is the suggestion a
good idea?</p>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: editors
will add an assertion that when using SOAP 1.2 the fault code
QName is constrained to the five values from the
spec</strong></p>
<h3 id="item09">CR110</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> arthur asks, what does
it mean when cookies="true"?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Arthur:</cite> it's not good if
cookies="true" just means service will send them but client may
ignore them<br />
... it would be better if we mandate something, e.g. that the
client accept and support the cookies<br />
... the property is required but binding says cookies MAY be
indicated</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> let's say "every
binding does indicate"</p>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: first
part - we clarify that "true" means the service relies on
cookies and client must understand them; second part change MAY
indicate to indicates</strong></p>
<h3 id="item10">CR111</h3>
<p class='phone'>Jonathan reads the issue</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> should robust in-only
bind to a specific HTTP code?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>plh:</cite> I'd say 202, empty
response<br />
... that's what SOAP does<br />
... we can do the same thing</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>youenn:</cite> +1 for 202<br />
... and it seems there's potential for other things we're
missing</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> yes, are we sure this
MEP is the only one that needs to be specified?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Arthur:</cite> should we consider 204 as
well? 202 implies async, 204 implies action done, no
return<br />
... does the MEP imply async?<br />
... 204 should be used for robust MEP, because it guarantees
there's no fault coming up</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> we have two proposals,
202, and 204</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>plh:</cite> 202 for in-only is
appropriate, you don't care what happens, 204 gives you more
info than you request</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Arthur:</cite> agree</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>plh:</cite> for robust, it seems it
should be 204</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>youenn:</cite> maybe the code is
app-dependent?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>plh:</cite> if you get 202 from
robust-in-only, you can't get the fault later if it occurs</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>JacekK:</cite> agrees with Arthur, for
robust it should be 204</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>youenn:</cite> should we let XMLP
know?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> it seems we should do
202 for in-only, 204 for robust-in-only</p><a name="action03"
id="action03"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> plh to check with XMLP whether they
should be interested in 204 as well [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/14-ws-desc-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/14-ws-desc-minutes.html#action03</a>]</p>
<h3 id="item11">CR112</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> we're combining
location with address prematurely in the spec<br />
... if I don't have an endpoint and only binding (or multiple
endpoints), we cannot compute the value of the property<br />
... looks editorial<br />
... no, looks substantial</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>TonyR:</cite> let's get a proposal from
the editors</p><a name="action04" id="action04"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> plh to come up with a more detailed
proposal for CR112 if possible [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/14-ws-desc-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/14-ws-desc-minutes.html#action04</a>]</p>
<h3 id="item12">CR113</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>youenn:</cite> we're missing properties
in SOAP binding for reuse of HTTP binding</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Arthur:</cite> why did we even allow
different query separators?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> best practice differs
from real practice<br />
... proposal: import the query separator properties to the SOAP
binding as well</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>charltonb</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: import
the query separator and query separator default properties to
the SOAP binding</strong></p>
</div>
<h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Arthur to examine
the equivalence of 0006 and 0014 [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/14-ws-desc-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/14-ws-desc-minutes.html#action02</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Jonathan to fix
transferCodings - add control group. [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/14-ws-desc-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/14-ws-desc-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> plh to check with
XMLP whether they should be interested in 204 as well [recorded
in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/14-ws-desc-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/14-ws-desc-minutes.html#action03</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> plh to come up
with a more detailed proposal for CR112 if possible [recorded in
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2006/12/14-ws-desc-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2006/12/14-ws-desc-minutes.html#action04</a>]<br />
<br />
[End of minutes]<br />
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