Minutes, 25 jan 2007 WS Description WG telcon
"Jonathan Marsh" <[email protected]>
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Enclosed. Jonathan Marsh - <http://www.wso2.com> http://www.wso2.com - <http://auburnmarshes.spaces.live.com> http://auburnmarshes.spaces.live.com
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<h1>WS Description WG telcon</h1>
<h2>25 Jan 2007</h2>
<p>See also: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2007/01/25-ws-desc-irc">IRC log</a></p>
<h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>
<div class="intro">
<dl>
<dt>Present</dt>
<dd>Charlton Baretto, Adobe Systems</dd>
<dd>Allen Brookes, Rogue Wave Software</dd>
<dd>Roberto Chinnici, Sun Microsystems</dd>
<dd>Paul Downey, British Telecommunications</dd>
<dd>Youenn Fablet, Canon</dd>
<dd>Jacek Kopecky, DERI Innsbruck at the Leopold-Franzens-Universität Innsbruck, Austria</dd>
<dd>Amelia Lewis, TIBCO</dd>
<dd>Monica Martin, Sun Microsystems</dd>
<dd>Jean-Jacques Moreau, Canon</dd>
<dd>Gilbert Pilz, BEA Systems</dd>
<dd>Tony Rogers, Co-chair/Computer Associates</dd>
<dd>Asir Vedamuthu, Microsoft</dd>
<dt>Regrets</dt>
<dd>Philippe Le Hegaret, W3C</dd>
<dd>Arthur Ryman, IBM</dd>
<dt>Chair</dt>
<dd>Jonathan</dd>
<dt>Scribe</dt>
<dd>tonyr</dd>
</dl>
</div>
<h2>Contents</h2>
<ul>
<li>
<a href="#agenda">Topics</a>
<ol>
<li><a href="#item01">minutes approval</a></li>
<li><a href="#item02">administrivia</a></li>
<li><a href="#item03">MTOM description</a></li>
<li><a href="#item04">CR112</a></li>
<li><a href="#item05">CR145</a></li>
<li><a href="#item06">CR117</a></li>
</ol>
</li>
<li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
</ul>
<hr />
<div class="meeting">
<p class='irc'><<cite>jkaputin</cite>> Roland Merrick is
actually John Kaputin (Apache Woden/IBM) standing in for Arthur
Ryman</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>> scribe: tonyr</p>
<h3 id="item01">minutes approval</h3>
<p class='phone'>minutes approved without dissent</p>
<pre>Review of Action items [.1].
[Interop]
? 2006-11-30: [interop] John Kaputin to create a test case
with "required=false".
? 2006-12-14: [interop] Jonathan to fix transferCodings -
add control group
DONE [.3] 2007-01-18: [interop] Jonathan to factor multipart out of
MessageTest-2G
[WG]
? 2006-09-21: Jonathan to check periodically that SPARQL has
added schemaLocation.
? 2006-12-14: plh to come up with a more detailed proposal for
CR112 if possible
? 2007-01-04: Paul to report back on which test cases in the
WSDL test suite fail the basic patterns, with
suggestions on how to address the issues.
DONE [.4] 2007-01-04: Jonathan to analyze CR117 further.
? 2007-01-11: Jean-Jacques to provide more analysis on how
difficult it would be deal with a Policy that
only contains an MTOM policy assertion
Current Editorial Action Items
Note: Editorial AIs associated with LC issues recorded at [.2].
[.1] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/#actions
[.2] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/5/cr-issues/actions_owner.html
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2007Jan/0159.html
[.4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2007Jan/0162.html
</pre>
<h3 id="item02">administrivia</h3>
<p class='phone'>WS-Policy responses have been accepted and
applied to their spec; Charlton tracking</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>alewis</cite>> i haven't seen
anything, as i recall.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Zakim</cite>> asir, you wanted to
ask a question?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>alewis</cite>> grr. what
happened?</p>
<h3 id="item03">MTOM description</h3>
<p class='phone'>draft of charter for the XML-P group,
including MTOM</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> suggest we forward
Jean-Jacques' comments on the XML-P charter to the CG and the
authors of the charter</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>JJM:</cite> pleased that the charter is
happening, but would be happier if it were more detailed</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> any specifics?<br />
... will forward JJM's comments, but want to know if the WG has
any other specific recommendations to the authors</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>asir</cite>> Here is the link
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/Submission/2006/SUBM-WS-MTOMPolicy-20061101/">
http://www.w3.org/Submission/2006/SUBM-WS-MTOMPolicy-20061101/</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>pauld</cite>> also had a challenge
when looking at the charter</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>charlton</cite>> thanks asir</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>pauld</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2007/01/XML-Protocol-Charter.html">http://www.w3.org/2007/01/XML-Protocol-Charter.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jjm:</cite> could not reach the
submission by clicking on the link in the charter - permissions
issue</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>asir</cite>> am wondering why such
specific comments cannot be handled through Canon AC
representative</p><a name="action01" id="action01"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Jonathan to forward comments to the
author of the MTOM charter [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2007/01/25-ws-desc-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2007/01/25-ws-desc-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p><a name="action02"
id="action02"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Jean-Jacques to develop more concrete
suggestions for expansion of the charter for the XML-P group
[recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2007/01/25-ws-desc-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2007/01/25-ws-desc-minutes.html#action02</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>asir</cite>> thank you for the
clarification</p>
<h3 id="item04">CR112</h3>
<p class='phone'>waiting on input from Philippe - skipping</p>
<h3 id="item05">CR145</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> we agreed that the
status quo is clear<br />
... perhaps current model is unclear, and we could remove those
items that are not referred to by any WSDL component</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Roberto:</cite> not sure that the status
quo says what you said it does</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>JohnK:</cite> I agree - not certain that
the spec says clearly what is included</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Roberto:</cite> argument detailed in
e-mail is that we should only include in the component model
those items which are referenceable<br />
... those elements which are inported by things which are
imported cannot be referenced unless also directly imported;
only those items which are directly imported should be
included</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>JohnK:</cite> agreed - only those items
which can be referenced should be included in the component
model<br />
... Arthur had some concerns about referencability. Once we
reach the component model we lose the understanding of which
elements are referenceable because referenceability is a
property of the document</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Roberto:</cite> not sure that I agree.
Yes, referenceability is a feature of the document, but if we
follow the procedure I outline we will get a suitable set of
components</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>JohnK:</cite> inclined to agree.
Including everything clutters the component model with
components which are not used because they were not able to be
referenced<br />
... prefer Roberto's proposal</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> like Roberto's
proposal, too - it reinforces the idea of import; produces a
nicer "mental model"</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>JohnK:</cite> we haven't covered the
likely use cases - Arthur could address that if he were
here<br />
... we may need to revisit this if Arthur has additional use
cases</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> are we clear on the
wording we require in the spec?</p><a name="action03" id=
"action03"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Roberto to suggest more concrete
wording for the spec for CR145 [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2007/01/25-ws-desc-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2007/01/25-ws-desc-minutes.html#action03</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Marsh</cite>> Look at sections
3.1.3 and the Desc Comp section 2.1.1</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>JohnK:</cite> section 3.1.3 and
Description Component section in Part 1</p>
<h3 id="item06">CR117</h3>
<p class='phone'>Jonathan</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> this is about encoding
the data included in a URI - what rules we should follow in
determining which parts of the data are URL-encoded?<br />
... we had two proposals:<br />
... 1. augment the template syntax to indicate which parameters
should be / should not be encoded<br />
... 2. always encode all parameters, ensuring everything is
always reversible<br />
... in this case we'd ensure that all parameters must be
separated by an unescaped character not in the set of unescaped
characters</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jacek:</cite> you are talking about
reconstructing the query from the URL - has this ever been an
objective of the spec?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> no, but our
implementations have been requiring this ability</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Youenn:</cite> yes, it makes sense to be
able to reconstruct</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Roberto:</cite> I like the idea of the
different templating syntax. That would be a good solution,
using two different serialisation "modes"<br />
... on the other hand, I don't like the other proposal - to
insist on unique deserialisation</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Youenn:</cite> I think it's just a
warning, not an error</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> the raw vs encoded
proposal doesn't solve the real problem, which is the unique
deserialisation</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jacek:</cite> I don't like the idea of
adding a new feature at this time, which would require
returning to LC again.<br />
... perhaps we should add an XML simple type which disallows
the set of characters which cause problems</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> can we create a simple
type to do this? Right now we'd need a BNF</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Youenn:</cite> the writer of the binding
may not be the writer of the interface</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jacek:</cite> don't we already have this
problem?<br />
... wouldn't mind that all that much - already constrained</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> Jacek's proposal is
that we add descriptive text about problems in some operations
due to ambiguity from including certain characters in
parameters, and provide a simple type to avoid these
ambiguities<br />
... This would not avoid the problem of reversability - will
not be able to reconstruct the original query</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Youenn:</cite> the server may not be
able to understand the message</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jacek:</cite> The server will break? I
can't see the problem here</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> unless you constrain
the data in the URL, the server may be "confused"</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jacek:</cite> we have the problem
already in other places - a "first name" field that could be
"any string" could be sent a 5Mb string, which could cause
problems with most servers</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Youenn:</cite> perhaps we could insist
that uncited parameters which go into the query string be
encoded; cited parameters would not be encoded</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> how does that solve the
problem?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jacek:</cite> the uncited parameters
would not be able to mess up the cited parameters</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> sounds like my second
proposal is DOA (mandatory encoding + ban ambiguity)<br />
... could adopt my first proposal, or Youenn's proposal</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>JacekK</cite>> chad, question:
CR117</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>JacekK</cite>> chad, question?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>JacekK</cite>> chad, options?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>alewis</cite>> vote: 4, 3, 5, 2</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>JacekK</cite>> vote: 4, 2, 0</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>vote:</cite> 4, 0, 5, 2, 3</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>charlton</cite>> vote: 4, 5, 2,
3</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>youenn</cite>> vote: 5, 1, 2, 3,
4</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Allen1</cite>> vote: 4, 0</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Roberto</cite>> vote: 1, 4, 0, 5,
3, 2</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>gpilz</cite>> vote: 4, 5, 3, 2</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>monica</cite>> 1,4,no others</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Jonathan</cite>> vote: 3, 5, 2</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>JacekK</cite>> vote: monica: 1,
4</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>jjm</cite>> vote: 5, 1, 2, 3, 4</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>JacekK</cite>> chad, count</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>chad</cite>> Question: CR117</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>chad</cite>> Option 0: status quo
(0)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>chad</cite>> Option 1: jonathat's
1st - new syntax for controlling whether or not to encode
(2)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>chad</cite>> Option 2: youenn -
cited parameters raw, uncited encoded (0)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>chad</cite>> Option 3: jonathat's
2nd - everything encoded, ambiguity forbidden (1)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>chad</cite>> Option 4: jacek's -
all is raw, we warn people, give them guidance and maybe a
restrictive simple type (6)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>chad</cite>> Option 5: everything
encoded (2)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>chad</cite>> 11 voters: alewis
(4,3,5,2),Allen1 (4,0),charlton (4,5,2,3),gpilz
(4,5,3,2),JacekK (4,2,0),jjm (5,1,2,3,4),Jonathan
(3,5,2),monica (1,4),Roberto (1,4,0,5,3,2),TonyR
(4,0,5,2,3),youenn (5,1,2,3,4)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>chad</cite>> Round 1: Count of
first place rankings.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>chad</cite>> Candidate 4 is
elected.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>chad</cite>> Winner is option 4 -
jacek's - all is raw, we warn people, give them guidance and
maybe a restrictive simple type</p>
<p class='phone'>Straw poll indicates a strong preference for
Jacek's proposal</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>monica</cite>> need to play
lotto</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>monica</cite>> $240 millon in
oregon</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>youenn:</cite> dislike this proposal.
Might be better to support the use cases we know; don't want to
block future use cases</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jacek:</cite> can the use cases that
this proposal blocks be addressed in the application?<br />
... application can be built to use encoding where needed<br />
... adding path segments is a use case which would be blocked
by encoding everything</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>JacekK</cite>> chad, clean</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jacek:</cite> using Youenn's proposal
would still allow us to warn people of the consequences</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>JacekK</cite>> chad, reset</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>chad</cite>> new poll</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>JacekK</cite>> chad, question:
CR117</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Roberto</cite>> I prefer option 1,
having authors explicitly choose between raw and encoded, over
option 2</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>asir</cite>> Are there any concrete
proposals written down for any of these options?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Tony:</cite> concerned about security
issues with RAW parameters</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jacek:</cite> have the same issues
without WSDL - a user can enter a URL without using the WSDL,
so there's no security hole (that wasn't already present)<br />
... might avoid bugs / undocumented features by encoding, but
nothing more</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Youenn:</cite> would prefer to offer a
choice of RAW/encoded</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jacek:</cite> we have a default - the
status quo is that we leave everything RAW</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Youenn:</cite> not sure that the default
was thought through</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jacek:</cite> we are in CR - reluctant
to change things at this point<br />
... we can provide advice, and offer a simple type to avoid
issues</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Youenn:</cite> but there are values
which won't be valid according to the simple type - some book
titles won't be accepted</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jacek:</cite> if we want to put things
into a URI, you have to encode them</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Youenn:</cite> cannot automate the
reconstruction of the query from the URL</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jacek:</cite> wonder what the web people
would say about this - if we are constructing a URI, we are
addressing a resource, and the resource should "know what to
do"</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> there are fiddly bits
in the HTTP binding. if we don't do any encoding, then there
are more restrictions on the data we can use</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Roberto</cite>> if there are two
classes of users with two different use cases, it makes sense
to have two template syntaxes, i.e. option 1</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jonathan:</cite> guess we'll have to
return this one to the mailing list. Please describe the
positions clearly</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Jonathan</cite>> Thanks Tony!</p>
</div>
<h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Jean-Jacques to
develop more concrete suggestions for expansion of the charter
for the XML-P group [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2007/01/25-ws-desc-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2007/01/25-ws-desc-minutes.html#action02</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Jonathan to
forward comments to the author of the MTOM charter [recorded in
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2007/01/25-ws-desc-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2007/01/25-ws-desc-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Roberto to
suggest more concrete wording for the spec for CR145 [recorded in
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2007/01/25-ws-desc-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2007/01/25-ws-desc-minutes.html#action03</a>]<br />
<br />
[End of minutes]<br />
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