Minutes, 8 Feb 2007 WS Description WG telcon
"Jonathan Marsh" <[email protected]>
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Enclosed. Jonathan Marsh - <http://www.wso2.com> http://www.wso2.com - <http://auburnmarshes.spaces.live.com> http://auburnmarshes.spaces.live.com
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<h1>WS Description WG telcon</h1>
<h2>8 Feb 2007</h2>
<p>See also: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-irc">IRC log</a></p>
<h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>
<div class="intro">
<dl>
<dt>Present</dt>
<dd>Charlton Baretto, Adobe Systems</dd>
<dd>Allen Brookes, Rogue Wave Software</dd>
<dd>Roberto Chinnici, Sun Microsystems</dd>
<dd>Paul Downey, British Telecommunications</dd>
<dd>Youenn Fablet, Canon</dd>
<dd>Jacek Kopecky, DERI Innsbruck at the Leopold-Franzens-Universität Innsbruck, Austria</dd>
<dd>Amelia Lewis, TIBCO</dd>
<dd>Philippe Le Hegaret, W3C</dd>
<dd>Jonathan Marsh, Co-chair/WSO2</dd>
<dd>Monica Martin, Sun Microsystems</dd>
<dd>Jean-Jacques Moreau, Canon</dd>
<dd>Gilbert Pilz, BEA Systems</dd>
<dd>Tony Rogers, Co-chair/Computer Associates</dd>
<dd>Arthur Ryman, IBM</dd>
<dd>Asir Vedamuthu, Microsoft</dd>
<dt>Regrets</dt>
<dt>Chair</dt>
<dd>Jonathan</dd>
<dt>Scribe</dt>
<dd>alewis, pauld</dd>
</dl>
</div>
<h2>Contents</h2>
<ul>
<li>
<a href="#agenda">Topics</a>
<ol>
<li><a href="#item01">action items: bang, bang, everything
reviewed</a></li>
<li><a href="#item02">administrivia: skip over</a></li>
<li><a href="#item03">one-way mep review for xmlp</a></li>
<li><a href="#item04">ws-policy fragment
identifiers</a></li>
<li><a href="#item05">ws-addressing metadata draft in last
call, want review within three weeks.</a></li>
<li><a href="#item06">cr 112, awaiting a proposal from
philippe</a></li>
<li><a href="#item07">cr117, escaping in http
{location}</a></li>
<li><a href="#item08">issue CR143</a></li>
<li><a href="#item09">CR 146</a></li>
<li><a href="#item10">CR 147</a></li>
<li><a href="#item11">cr 129</a></li>
<li><a href="#item12">CR 132: should have a should that
says that only elements which are appropriate to a given
operation should be allowed.</a></li>
<li><a href="#item13">CR 136: resolved as
editorial</a></li>
<li><a href="#item14">CR 137: propose resolution as
editorial, typographical</a></li>
<li><a href="#item15">CR 138: propose resolution as
editorial</a></li>
<li><a href="#item16">CR 139: objection to
definition/description of wsdl in various places in the
spec.</a></li>
</ol>
</li>
<li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
</ul>
<hr />
<div class="meeting">
<p class='irc'><<cite>alewis</cite>> scribe: alewis</p>
<p class='phone'>minutes accepted.</p>
<h3 id="item01">action items: bang, bang, everything
reviewed</h3>
<pre>Review of Action items [.1].
[Interop]
? 2006-11-30: [interop] John Kaputin to create a test case
with "required=false".
? 2006-12-14: [interop] Jonathan to fix transferCodings -
add control group
[WG]
? 2006-09-21: Jonathan to check periodically that SPARQL has
added schemaLocation.
? 2006-12-14: plh to come up with a more detailed proposal for
CR112 if possible
? 2007-01-04: Paul to report back on which test cases in the
WSDL test suite fail the basic patterns, with
suggestions on how to address the issues.
? 2007-01-11: Jean-Jacques to provide more analysis on how
difficult it would be deal with a Policy that
only contains an MTOM policy assertion
DONE [.3] 2007-02-01: Arthur to review the WSDL 1.1 identifier spec.
DONE [.4] 2007-02-01: Jonathan to provide an enhanced option 1 for issue
117 by next week, using bits from the other
proposals as indicated above.
Current Editorial Action Items
Note: Editorial AIs associated with LC issues recorded at [.2].
[.1] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/#actions
[.2] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/5/cr-issues/actions_owner.html
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2007Feb/0002.html
[.4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2007Feb/0039.html</pre>
<h3 id="item02">administrivia: skip over</h3>
<h3 id="item03">one-way mep review for xmlp</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>jonathan:</cite> any objections to
forwarding comments?</p><a name="action01" id="action01"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> jonathan to forward comments on
one-way mep to XMLP working group [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p>
<h3 id="item04">ws-policy fragment identifiers</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>jonathan:</cite> don't understand why
this exists; it doesn't work properly</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>arthur:</cite> exists to match wsdl 2.0
component designators</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jonathan:</cite> has big problem with
imports and includes</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jacek:</cite> component identifiers do
work properly for wsdl 2.0.</p>
<p class='phone'>(or maybe jacek was talking about the 1.1
identifiers?)</p>
<p class='phone'>arthur and jacek seem to think that the
identifiers are okay; jonathan now uncertain of his
analysis.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jacek:</cite> since imported things are
in their own namespace, everything actually does work.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jonathan:</cite> will take another look,
trying to find a case that's unclear as an example.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>arthur:</cite> targetNamespace isn't
required in 1.1, is it?</p>
<p class='phone'>defer for a week, review again and discuss;
jonathan continues to believe that there may be a simpler
approach.</p>
<h3 id="item05">ws-addressing metadata draft in last call, want
review within three weeks.</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>jonathan:</cite> call for volunteers to
review.</p>
<h3 id="item06">cr 112, awaiting a proposal from philippe</h3>
<h3 id="item07">cr117, escaping in http {location}</h3>
<p class='phone'>jonathan has tried to write up option one in
more detail.</p>
<p class='phone'>needs massaging, to incorporate
clarifications.</p>
<p class='phone'>youenn has clarified option two, as well,
making one and two fairly compatible (?)</p>
<p class='phone'>discussion of parameter encoding, issues
raised by jacek in email.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>youenn:</cite> need to remove ampersand,
colon, equals (all special URL characters that might have a
special use in a URL) should be encoded, to be safe.</p>
<p class='phone'>youenn offers to send a list of characters
which may have to be encoded.</p>
<p class='phone'>discussion of which ones need it, attempting
to talk out the list.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jonathan:</cite> if we update list to
include query parameters, does that solve it?</p>
<p class='phone'>jacek has pointed out that question mark and
slash are in wrong place.</p>
<p class='phone'>jonathan will move those two.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jonathan:</cite> okay, what do people
prefer?</p>
<p class='phone'>discussion of some other characters (tilde,
exclamation point)</p>
<p class='phone'>three changes: encode query parameter
separator, move two characters, add provision to encode query
parameter separator, and change tilde to exclamation point</p>
<p class='phone'>ready to adopt?</p>
<p class='phone'>no objections heard</p>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: CR117
resolved with option one as modified.</strong></p>
<h3 id="item08">issue CR143</h3>
<p class='phone'>jonathan has had offline discussions with
various folks on handling the http binding.</p>
<p class='phone'>proposal is to change transfer-coding to
content-encoding in the syntax, in the name of the property,
and to clarify the description.</p>
<p class='phone'>call for comments: none heard</p>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: CR 143
closed with the resolution: change transfer-encoding to
content-encoding, clarify description.</strong></p>
<h3 id="item09">CR 146</h3>
<p class='phone'>jonathan can't remember why this wasn't closed
with acceptance of the proposal from last week's minutes.</p>
<p class='phone'>anything thrown out with ignoreUncited=true
must be nillable; postponed because youenn wasn't around.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Jonathan</cite>> <a href=
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2007Feb/0009.html">
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2007Feb/0009.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jonathan:</cite> this is fairly
esoteric</p>
<p class='phone'>jacek, jonathan: should we be describing
receiver behavior?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>arthur:</cite> it's not about behavior,
it's about the appearance of the message on the wire, and
whether that can be unambiguous.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jonathan:</cite> is this really worth
fixing?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jacek:</cite> interop problem appears
when two different services are created from the same wsdl, and
they differ in how they handle missing bits.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jonathan:</cite> best way to handle that
is to tell people not to combine default and nillable.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>arthur:</cite> add an assertion (a
should)</p>
<p class='phone'>youenn, jonathan: maybe just change "must" in
proposal to "should" ?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jonathan:</cite> want this resolved.
maybe no one really cares and it could be closed with no
action?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>arthur:</cite> prefer to err on the side
of interop rather than flexibility.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jonathan:</cite> reiterate proposal in
email, with grammatical cleanup and the additional should.</p>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: CR 146
closed with the email proposal from jonathan, as
modified.</strong></p>
<h3 id="item10">CR 147</h3>
<p class='phone'>the safety flag as semantics.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>pauld</cite>> scribe: pauld</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jacek:</cite> introduces the issue, WSDL
doesn't describe semantics, apart from "safety" sawsdl is a
framework for annotating WSDL with semantics<br />
... as chair of the SAWSDL WG i believe our specification is a
better mechanism than the WSDL WG defined annotation</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>arthur:</cite> I don't agree it's
semantic, it allows you to understand when you can use GET</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>marsh:</cite> I thought the use-case was
to flag POST</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jacek:</cite> and you can't explicitly
say an operation is NOT safe</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>marsh:</cite> if an operation is known
not to be safe, then you can't bind to GET<br />
... it's a syntax discussion, and the impact on our component
model<br />
... we should be aware it could be hard to use and changes our
syntax<br />
... my personal position is it is a semantic annotation and
cleaner in an extension, and the GET is a small feature<br />
... we may receive comments from the TAG if we removed our
safety feature</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>alewis</cite>> scribe: alewis</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> it seems clearer if it is
left to the sawsdl working group</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jonathan:</cite> can we leave this to
another working group at this stage?<br />
... an alternative is to have sawsdl define on top of the
existing safety property, so there would be two syntaxes for
the same property.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> would be nice to remove,
though, so that there's no possible confusion, and it can't get
lost.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jonathan:</cite> tag likes safety to be
visible and easy to use; maybe better to do it as one of
several semantic annotations, but might be late to do it.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jacek:</cite> proposes actually asking
the tag whether this could be moved to sawsdl, and to delay
resolution until they respond.</p>
<p class='phone'>jonathan, jacek: note that this is not
dropping something that is not at risk, but moving it from one
CR to another CR.</p><a name="action02" id="action02"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Jacek to approach TAG on subject of
moving "safety" annotation from WSDL specification to SAWSDL
[recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-minutes.html#action02</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>pauld</cite>> presumably the SAWSDL
URI could have value outside of WSDL, so the TAG might prefer
such a solution</p>
<h3 id="item11">cr 129</h3>
<p class='phone'>instead of generic "message label", replace
with "in" and "out".</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>asir</cite>> +1 to close without
any action</p>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: CR 129
closed with no action (based on misinterpretation of message
labels)</strong></p>
<h3 id="item12">CR 132: should have a should that says that
only elements which are appropriate to a given operation should
be allowed.</h3>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Jonathan</cite>> <a href=
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2007Jan/0000.html">
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2007Jan/0000.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'>jonathan posts url of mail from arthur
containing a shorter formulation</p>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: CR 132
closed with the first two assertions from the original mail,
last two from arthur's amendment.</strong></p>
<h3 id="item13">CR 136: resolved as editorial</h3>
<h3 id="item14">CR 137: propose resolution as editorial,
typographical</h3>
<h3 id="item15">CR 138: propose resolution as editorial</h3>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: CR 136,
137, 138 resolved as editorial</strong></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jacek:</cite> wait, isn't this about the
property, so it *isn't* actually a union? property always
populated with specifics.</p>
<p class='phone'>question of whether #any or #none make sense.
argument is that it doesn't make sense, since there's no point
in defining a fault if you don't actually define it.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jacek:</cite> but #other still makes
sense. and therefore we need to change the content model,
modeling it on interface message reference.</p>
<p class='phone'>replace current with #other or #element.</p>
<p class='phone'>general agreement that #any and #none actually
do make sense in this context.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>arthur:</cite> in that case, it's
exactly parallel to message?</p>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: CR 138
to be resolved by making faults identical to interface message
references.</strong></p>
<h3 id="item16">CR 139: objection to definition/description of
wsdl in various places in the spec.</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>jacek:</cite> procedural not used
elsewhere, document-oriented not used elsewhere.<br />
... network service also only used in part two abstract.<br />
... modify abstract in part two to match part one. wsdl is a
language for describing web services.</p>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: CR 139
closed as editorial, editors instructed to make part two use
same definition as part one.</strong></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Arthur</cite>> Concerning the
previous issue on the Abstract, we should refer to <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/TR/ws-arch/">http://www.w3.org/TR/ws-arch/</a>
for the definition of Web Service</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Arthur</cite>> i.e. CR139</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jonathan:</cite> there's a header that
canon and wsos2 are both using; just add it, since it aids
interop?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>jacek:</cite> no, this is an entity
header; can't be used in this fashion.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Arthur</cite>> CR 148 I think
Amy</p><a name="action03" id="action03"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> jacek to investigate soap and http
with respect to soap action header [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-minutes.html#action03</a>]</p>
</div>
<h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Jacek to approach
TAG on subject of moving "safety" annotation from WSDL
specification to SAWSDL [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-minutes.html#action02</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> jacek to
investigate soap and http with respect to soap action header
[recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-minutes.html#action03</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> jonathan to
forward comments on one-way mep to XMLP working group [recorded
in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2007/02/08-ws-desc-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />
<br />
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