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How is that idempotent? You absolutely can=E2=80=99t use PUT unless it=E2=
=80=99s
idempotent.
On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Dong Liu [email protected] [rest-discuss]
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> For a three-way or N-way switch, I prefer a conditional PUT to a POST.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dong
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 2:45 PM, Will Hartung [email protected]
> [rest-discuss] <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> From home automation point of view, I can only think of one use case
>> where "toggle" actually has any validity, and that would be in the "3 wa=
y
>> switch" scenario.
>>
>> A 3 way switch is exemplified by walking up to a dark hallway, turning
>> the light on with a nearby swtich, walking to the end, and then turning =
the
>> light off with a switch at the other end.
>>
>> This use case is a true "toggle", since the "state" is the actual light
>> (on or off), and the switch itself does not represent that state (unlike=
a
>> normal, single switch). The switches can be "up" or "down" unrelated to =
the
>> light being "on" or "off".
>>
>> Given that, again from a home automation point of view, I can't really
>> ever see "toggle" as a viable action. Maybe it's a primitive. But, in th=
e
>> end, when you walk in to that dark hallway, what you want is the light t=
o
>> go on, the mechanics of the switches are secondary.
>>
>> I just mention this because at a high level, "toggle" doesn't make much
>> sense to me. The automation folks may well need it as a primitive to
>> control a switch. But at the "application" level, it doesn't make much
>> sense. At an application level, you either want the "Light" ON or OFF.
>>
>> So, with that consideration, a simple POST will do the trick.
>>
>> I don't think there's any "race condition", because "toggle" is not a
>> state, it's an action. If you care about the state, then set the state y=
ou
>> want. You should hide the "toggle", and enforce the state behind the sce=
nes
>> (where you can manage race conditions on the server). Let the server dec=
ide
>> that when you change the state to ON, it can determine, internally, if t=
he
>> device is OFF and then send a TOGGLE command to make it ON. If it's alre=
ady
>> ON, then nothing happens.
>>
>> But a "toggle" POST is just that, a simple command.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Will Hartung
>> ([email protected])
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 9:36 AM, Erik Wilde [email protected]
>> [rest-discuss] <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> hello robby.
>>>
>>> On 2014-07-09, 17:47 , 'Simpson, Robby (GE Energy Management)'
>>> [email protected] [rest-discuss] wrote:
>>> >> it sounds like the scenario we were talking about, that all you want
>>> is
>>> >> to tell the resource to "reverse its state". in this case, i'd POST =
a
>>> >> body that represents this request, in whatever serialization you
>>> happen
>>> >> to prefer. the resource toggles. everybody's happy.
>>> > OK. Still seems like a bit of a departure from typical RESTful
>>> interfaces
>>> > I've seen and has the potential to be a catch-all tunnel for RPC-styl=
e
>>> > requests.
>>> > E.g.:
>>> > /command, where one could POST all sorts of commands like "toggle."
>>>
>>> the problem is not that POST can mean anything (it can), but people
>>> POSTing things to a "do stuff" resource, which then isn't
>>> resource-oriented anymore. your RPC sensor shouldn't go off because of
>>> people POSTing things to resources (that's fine), but because of people
>>> POSTing things to something other than resources (the "API end point",
>>> for example).
>>>
>>>
>>> >> but i am confused because you wrote earlier that you were concerned
>>> >> about race conditions. which seems to imply that instead of just
>>> >> toggling, you're also assuming that you're "toggling *from* some
>>> state".
>>> >> but that wouldn't be the "blind toggle" we discussed. could you
>>> clarify
>>> >> a bit how exactly the operation that you're trying to design is
>>> defined?
>>> > Apologies, a blind toggle is what is desired. As it currently works, =
in
>>> > the current binary protocol, a button press on a toggle switch simply
>>> > sends a "toggle" command.
>>>
>>> then how would a race condition enter the picture? just because of the
>>> timestamp when you last observed the resource's state? or something
>>> else? to me, toggling always is kind of a game: if somebody toggled
>>> ahead of you, you'll do something other than you wanted to, but that's
>>> how it is and you'll have to deal with it after toggling and finding ou=
t
>>> that you switched the damn thing back on again...
>>>
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>>
>>> dret.
>>>
>>> --
>>> erik wilde | mailto:[email protected] - tel:+1-510-2061079 |
>>> | UC Berkeley - School of Information (ISchool) |
>>> | http://dret.net/netdret http://twitter.com/dret |
>>>
>>>
>>
>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information contained in this electronic
>> transmission may be confidential. If you are not an intended recipient, =
be
>> aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the informati=
on
>> contained in this transmission is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you
>> have received this transmission in error, please notify us by email repl=
y
>> and then erase it from your computer system.
>>
>>
>
>
>=20
>
--=20
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see
https://keybase.io/timbray)
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<p><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:s=
mall;">How is that idempotent? =C2=A0You absolutely can=E2=80=99t use PUT u=
nless it=E2=80=99s idempotent.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"f=
ont-size:small;"><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Dong Li=
u <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> [rest-discus=
s] <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:rest-discuss-noreply@yahoogroups=
.com" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>></span>=
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left:1px #ccc solid;">
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
<div>
<br><br>
<div dir=3D"ltr">For a three-way or N-way switch, I prefer a conditional PU=
T to a POST.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div><br></div><div>Dong=
</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">O=
n Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 2:45 PM, Will Hartung <a href=3D"mailto:willh@mirthco=
rp.com" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a> [rest-discuss] <span dir=
=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=
=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left:1px #ccc solid;">
<u></u>
=20
<div style=3D"background-color:#fff;">
<span>=C2=A0</span>
<div>
<div>
<div>
=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20
<p></p><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>From home =
automation point of view, I can only think of one use case where "togg=
le" actually has any validity, and that would be in the "3 way sw=
itch" scenario.<br>
<br></div>
A 3 way switch is exemplified by walking up to a dark hallway, turning the =
light on with a nearby swtich, walking to the end, and then turning the lig=
ht off with a switch at the other end.<br><br></div>This use case is a true=
"toggle", since the "state" is the actual light (on or=
off), and the switch itself does not represent that state (unlike a normal=
, single switch). The switches can be "up" or "down" un=
related to the light being "on" or "off".<br>
<br></div>Given that, again from a home automation point of view, I can'=
;t really ever see "toggle" as a viable action. Maybe it's a =
primitive. But, in the end, when you walk in to that dark hallway, what you=
want is the light to go on, the mechanics of the switches are secondary.<b=
r>
<br></div>I just mention this because at a high level, "toggle" d=
oesn't make much sense to me. The automation folks may well need it as =
a primitive to control a switch. But at the "application" level, =
it doesn't make much sense. At an application level, you either want th=
e "Light" ON or OFF.<br>
<br></div>So, with that consideration, a simple POST will do the trick.<br>=
<br></div>I don't think there's any "race condition", bec=
ause "toggle" is not a state, it's an action. If you care abo=
ut the state, then set the state you want. You should hide the "toggle=
", and enforce the state behind the scenes (where you can manage race =
conditions on the server). Let the server decide that when you change the s=
tate to ON, it can determine, internally, if the device is OFF and then sen=
d a TOGGLE command to make it ON. If it's already ON, then nothing happ=
ens.<br>
<br></div>But a "toggle" POST is just that, a simple command.<br>=
<br><div><div><div><div><div><div>Regards,<br><br>Will Hartung<br>(<a href=
=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>)<=
br>
</div><div><br>
<div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 a=
t 9:36 AM, Erik Wilde <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank=
">[email protected]</a> [rest-discuss] <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mai=
lto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">rest-discuss-no=
[email protected]</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left:1px #ccc solid;">
<u></u>
=20
<div style=3D"background-color:#fff;">
<span>=C2=A0</span>
<div>
<div>
<div>
=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20
<p>hello robby.<br>
<br>
On 2014-07-09, 17:47 , 'Simpson, Robby (GE Energy Management)' <br>=
</p><div>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">robby.simpson@ge.=
com</a> [rest-discuss] wrote:<br>
>> it sounds like the scenario we were talking about, that all you wa=
nt is<br>
>> to tell the resource to "reverse its state". in this cas=
e, i'd POST a<br>
>> body that represents this request, in whatever serialization you h=
appen<br>
>> to prefer. the resource toggles. everybody's happy.<br>
> OK. Still seems like a bit of a departure from typical RESTful interf=
aces<br>
> I've seen and has the potential to be a catch-all tunnel for RPC-s=
tyle<br>
> requests.<br>
> E.g.:<br>
> /command, where one could POST all sorts of commands like "toggle=
."<br>
<br></div>
the problem is not that POST can mean anything (it can), but people <br>
POSTing things to a "do stuff" resource, which then isn't <br=
>
resource-oriented anymore. your RPC sensor shouldn't go off because of =
<br>
people POSTing things to resources (that's fine), but because of people=
<br>
POSTing things to something other than resources (the "API end point&q=
uot;, <br>
for example).<div><br>
<br>
>> but i am confused because you wrote earlier that you were concerne=
d<br>
>> about race conditions. which seems to imply that instead of just<b=
r>
>> toggling, you're also assuming that you're "toggling =
*from* some state".<br>
>> but that wouldn't be the "blind toggle" we discussed=
. could you clarify<br>
>> a bit how exactly the operation that you're trying to design i=
s defined?<br>
> Apologies, a blind toggle is what is desired. As it currently works, =
in<br>
> the current binary protocol, a button press on a toggle switch simply<=
br>
> sends a "toggle" command.<br>
<br></div>
then how would a race condition enter the picture? just because of the <br>
timestamp when you last observed the resource's state? or something <br=
>
else? to me, toggling always is kind of a game: if somebody toggled <br>
ahead of you, you'll do something other than you wanted to, but that=
9;s <br>
how it is and you'll have to deal with it after toggling and finding ou=
t <br>
that you switched the damn thing back on again...<div><br>
<br>
cheers,<br>
<br>
dret.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
erik wilde | mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">=
[email protected]</a> - tel:<a href=3D"tel:%2B1-510-2061079" value=3D"+15=
102061079" target=3D"_blank">+1-510-2061079</a> |<br>
| UC Berkeley - School of Information (ISchool) |<br>
| <a href=3D"http://dret.net/netdret" target=3D"_blank">http://=
dret.net/netdret</a> <a href=3D"http://twitter.com/dret" target=3D"_blank">=
http://twitter.com/dret</a> |<br>
</div><p></p>
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</div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div>- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private mess=
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#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd {
margin: 10px 0px;
font-weight: 700;
font-size: 78%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad {
margin-bottom: 10px;
padding: 0 0;
}
#actions {
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 11px;
padding: 10px 0;
}
#activity {
background-color: #e0ecee;
float: left;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10px;
padding: 10px;
}
#activity span {
font-weight: 700;
}
#activity span:first-child {
text-transform: uppercase;
}
#activity span a {
color: #5085b6;
text-decoration: none;
}
#activity span span {
color: #ff7900;
}
#activity span .underline {
text-decoration: underline;
}
.attach {
clear: both;
display: table;
font-family: Arial;
font-size: 12px;
padding: 10px 0;
width: 400px;
}
.attach div a {
text-decoration: none;
}
.attach img {
border: none;
padding-right: 5px;
}
.attach label {
display: block;
margin-bottom: 5px;
}
.attach label a {
text-decoration: none;
}
=20=20
blockquote {
margin: 0 0 0 4px;
}
.bold {
font-family: Arial;
font-size: 13px;
font-weight: 700;
}
.bold a {
text-decoration: none;
}
dd.last p a {
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: 700;
}
dd.last p span {
margin-right: 10px;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: 700;
}
dd.last p span.yshortcuts {
margin-right: 0;
}
div.attach-table div div a {
text-decoration: none;
}
div.attach-table {
width: 400px;
}
div.file-title a, div.file-title a:active, div.file-title a:hover, div.fi=
le-title a:visited {
text-decoration: none;
}
div.photo-title a, div.photo-title a:active, div.photo-title a:hover, div=
.photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration: none;
}
div#ygrp-mlmsg #ygrp-msg p a span.yshortcuts {
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10px;
font-weight: normal;
}
.green {
color: #628c2a;
}
.MsoNormal {
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
o {
font-size: 0;
}
#photos div {
float: left;
width: 72px;
}
#photos div div {
border: 1px solid #666666;
height: 62px;
overflow: hidden;
width: 62px;
}
#photos div label {
color: #666666;
font-size: 10px;
overflow: hidden;
text-align: center;
white-space: nowrap;
width: 64px;
}
#reco-category {
font-size: 77%;
}
#reco-desc {
font-size: 77%;
}
.replbq {
margin: 4px;
}
#ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
/* border-right: 0px solid #000;*/
margin-right: 2px;
padding-right: 5px;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size: 13px;
font-family: Arial, helvetica,clean, sans-serif;
*font-size: small;
*font: x-small;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size: inherit;
font: 100%;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {
font: 99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {
font:115% monospace;
*font-size:100%;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height: 1.22em;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg #logo {
padding-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-msg p a {
font-family: Verdana;
}
#ygrp-msg p#attach-count span {
color: #1E66AE;
font-weight: 700;
}
#ygrp-reco #reco-head {
color: #ff7900;
font-weight: 700;
}
#ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a {
font-size: 130%;
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li {
font-size: 77%;
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
}=20
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul {
margin: 0;
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-text {
font-family: Georgia;
}
#ygrp-text p {
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt {
font-size: 120%;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right: none !important;=20
}=20
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html>
<!-- end group email -->
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