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Right, a conditional PUT does not match an N-way switch well. To me, it is
even better than the real N-way switch because it reflects the true will of
a user and avoids confusion (somehow magic) when his kids are pushing the
other switches for the same light.
On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 3:16 PM, Tim Bray <[email protected]> wrote:
> How is that idempotent? You absolutely can=E2=80=99t use PUT unless it=
=E2=80=99s
> idempotent.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Dong Liu [email protected]
> [rest-discuss] <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> For a three-way or N-way switch, I prefer a conditional PUT to a POST.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Dong
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 2:45 PM, Will Hartung [email protected]
>> [rest-discuss] <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From home automation point of view, I can only think of one use case
>>> where "toggle" actually has any validity, and that would be in the "3 w=
ay
>>> switch" scenario.
>>>
>>> A 3 way switch is exemplified by walking up to a dark hallway, turning
>>> the light on with a nearby swtich, walking to the end, and then turning=
the
>>> light off with a switch at the other end.
>>>
>>> This use case is a true "toggle", since the "state" is the actual light
>>> (on or off), and the switch itself does not represent that state (unlik=
e a
>>> normal, single switch). The switches can be "up" or "down" unrelated to=
the
>>> light being "on" or "off".
>>>
>>> Given that, again from a home automation point of view, I can't really
>>> ever see "toggle" as a viable action. Maybe it's a primitive. But, in t=
he
>>> end, when you walk in to that dark hallway, what you want is the light =
to
>>> go on, the mechanics of the switches are secondary.
>>>
>>> I just mention this because at a high level, "toggle" doesn't make much
>>> sense to me. The automation folks may well need it as a primitive to
>>> control a switch. But at the "application" level, it doesn't make much
>>> sense. At an application level, you either want the "Light" ON or OFF.
>>>
>>> So, with that consideration, a simple POST will do the trick.
>>>
>>> I don't think there's any "race condition", because "toggle" is not a
>>> state, it's an action. If you care about the state, then set the state =
you
>>> want. You should hide the "toggle", and enforce the state behind the sc=
enes
>>> (where you can manage race conditions on the server). Let the server de=
cide
>>> that when you change the state to ON, it can determine, internally, if =
the
>>> device is OFF and then send a TOGGLE command to make it ON. If it's alr=
eady
>>> ON, then nothing happens.
>>>
>>> But a "toggle" POST is just that, a simple command.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Will Hartung
>>> ([email protected])
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 9:36 AM, Erik Wilde [email protected]
>>> [rest-discuss] <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> hello robby.
>>>>
>>>> On 2014-07-09, 17:47 , 'Simpson, Robby (GE Energy Management)'
>>>> [email protected] [rest-discuss] wrote:
>>>> >> it sounds like the scenario we were talking about, that all you wan=
t
>>>> is
>>>> >> to tell the resource to "reverse its state". in this case, i'd POST=
a
>>>> >> body that represents this request, in whatever serialization you
>>>> happen
>>>> >> to prefer. the resource toggles. everybody's happy.
>>>> > OK. Still seems like a bit of a departure from typical RESTful
>>>> interfaces
>>>> > I've seen and has the potential to be a catch-all tunnel for RPC-sty=
le
>>>> > requests.
>>>> > E.g.:
>>>> > /command, where one could POST all sorts of commands like "toggle."
>>>>
>>>> the problem is not that POST can mean anything (it can), but people
>>>> POSTing things to a "do stuff" resource, which then isn't
>>>> resource-oriented anymore. your RPC sensor shouldn't go off because of
>>>> people POSTing things to resources (that's fine), but because of peopl=
e
>>>> POSTing things to something other than resources (the "API end point",
>>>> for example).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >> but i am confused because you wrote earlier that you were concerned
>>>> >> about race conditions. which seems to imply that instead of just
>>>> >> toggling, you're also assuming that you're "toggling *from* some
>>>> state".
>>>> >> but that wouldn't be the "blind toggle" we discussed. could you
>>>> clarify
>>>> >> a bit how exactly the operation that you're trying to design is
>>>> defined?
>>>> > Apologies, a blind toggle is what is desired. As it currently works,
>>>> in
>>>> > the current binary protocol, a button press on a toggle switch simpl=
y
>>>> > sends a "toggle" command.
>>>>
>>>> then how would a race condition enter the picture? just because of the
>>>> timestamp when you last observed the resource's state? or something
>>>> else? to me, toggling always is kind of a game: if somebody toggled
>>>> ahead of you, you'll do something other than you wanted to, but that's
>>>> how it is and you'll have to deal with it after toggling and finding
>>>> out
>>>> that you switched the damn thing back on again...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> cheers,
>>>>
>>>> dret.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> erik wilde | mailto:[email protected] - tel:+1-510-2061079 |
>>>> | UC Berkeley - School of Information (ISchool) |
>>>> | http://dret.net/netdret http://twitter.com/dret |
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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be
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>>> have received this transmission in error, please notify us by email rep=
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>>>
>>
>>
>>=20
>>
>
>
>
> --
> - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see
> https://keybase.io/timbray)
>
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<p><div dir=3D"ltr">Right, a conditional PUT does not match an N-way =
switch well. To me, it is even better than the real N-way switch because it=
reflects the true will of a user and avoids confusion (somehow magic) when=
his kids are pushing the other switches for the same light. =C2=A0<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 9=
, 2014 at 3:16 PM, Tim Bray <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:tbray@t=
extuality.com" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>></span> wrote:=
<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left:1px #ccc solid;"=
>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-size:small;">How is that idempotent? =
=C2=A0You absolutely can=E2=80=99t use PUT unless it=E2=80=99s idempotent.<=
/div><div style=3D"font-size:small;"><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_ex=
tra">
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"h5">On Wed, Jul 9, 20=
14 at 12:09 PM, Dong Liu <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_b=
lank">[email protected]</a> [rest-discuss] <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=
=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">rest-dis=
[email protected]</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left:1px #ccc=
solid;">
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
<div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<br><br>
<div dir=3D"ltr">For a three-way or N-way switch, I prefer a conditional PU=
T to a POST.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div><br></div><div>Dong=
</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">O=
n Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 2:45 PM, Will Hartung <a href=3D"mailto:willh@mirthco=
rp.com" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a> [rest-discuss] <span dir=
=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=
=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left:1px #ccc solid;">
<u></u>
=20
<div style=3D"background-color:#fff;">
<span>=C2=A0</span>
<div>
<div>
<div>
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<p></p><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>From home =
automation point of view, I can only think of one use case where "togg=
le" actually has any validity, and that would be in the "3 way sw=
itch" scenario.<br>
<br></div>
A 3 way switch is exemplified by walking up to a dark hallway, turning the =
light on with a nearby swtich, walking to the end, and then turning the lig=
ht off with a switch at the other end.<br><br></div>This use case is a true=
"toggle", since the "state" is the actual light (on or=
off), and the switch itself does not represent that state (unlike a normal=
, single switch). The switches can be "up" or "down" un=
related to the light being "on" or "off".<br>
<br></div>Given that, again from a home automation point of view, I can'=
;t really ever see "toggle" as a viable action. Maybe it's a =
primitive. But, in the end, when you walk in to that dark hallway, what you=
want is the light to go on, the mechanics of the switches are secondary.<b=
r>
<br></div>I just mention this because at a high level, "toggle" d=
oesn't make much sense to me. The automation folks may well need it as =
a primitive to control a switch. But at the "application" level, =
it doesn't make much sense. At an application level, you either want th=
e "Light" ON or OFF.<br>
<br></div>So, with that consideration, a simple POST will do the trick.<br>=
<br></div>I don't think there's any "race condition", bec=
ause "toggle" is not a state, it's an action. If you care abo=
ut the state, then set the state you want. You should hide the "toggle=
", and enforce the state behind the scenes (where you can manage race =
conditions on the server). Let the server decide that when you change the s=
tate to ON, it can determine, internally, if the device is OFF and then sen=
d a TOGGLE command to make it ON. If it's already ON, then nothing happ=
ens.<br>
<br></div>But a "toggle" POST is just that, a simple command.<br>=
<br><div><div><div><div><div><div>Regards,<br><br>Will Hartung<br>(<a href=
=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>)<=
br>
</div><div><br>
<div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 a=
t 9:36 AM, Erik Wilde <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank=
">[email protected]</a> [rest-discuss] <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mai=
lto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">rest-discuss-no=
[email protected]</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left:1px #ccc solid;">
<u></u>
=20
<div style=3D"background-color:#fff;">
<span>=C2=A0</span>
<div>
<div>
<div>
=20=20=20=20=20=20
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<p>hello robby.<br>
<br>
On 2014-07-09, 17:47 , 'Simpson, Robby (GE Energy Management)' <br>=
</p><div>
<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">robby.simpson@ge.=
com</a> [rest-discuss] wrote:<br>
>> it sounds like the scenario we were talking about, that all you wa=
nt is<br>
>> to tell the resource to "reverse its state". in this cas=
e, i'd POST a<br>
>> body that represents this request, in whatever serialization you h=
appen<br>
>> to prefer. the resource toggles. everybody's happy.<br>
> OK. Still seems like a bit of a departure from typical RESTful interf=
aces<br>
> I've seen and has the potential to be a catch-all tunnel for RPC-s=
tyle<br>
> requests.<br>
> E.g.:<br>
> /command, where one could POST all sorts of commands like "toggle=
."<br>
<br></div>
the problem is not that POST can mean anything (it can), but people <br>
POSTing things to a "do stuff" resource, which then isn't <br=
>
resource-oriented anymore. your RPC sensor shouldn't go off because of =
<br>
people POSTing things to resources (that's fine), but because of people=
<br>
POSTing things to something other than resources (the "API end point&q=
uot;, <br>
for example).<div><br>
<br>
>> but i am confused because you wrote earlier that you were concerne=
d<br>
>> about race conditions. which seems to imply that instead of just<b=
r>
>> toggling, you're also assuming that you're "toggling =
*from* some state".<br>
>> but that wouldn't be the "blind toggle" we discussed=
. could you clarify<br>
>> a bit how exactly the operation that you're trying to design i=
s defined?<br>
> Apologies, a blind toggle is what is desired. As it currently works, =
in<br>
> the current binary protocol, a button press on a toggle switch simply<=
br>
> sends a "toggle" command.<br>
<br></div>
then how would a race condition enter the picture? just because of the <br>
timestamp when you last observed the resource's state? or something <br=
>
else? to me, toggling always is kind of a game: if somebody toggled <br>
ahead of you, you'll do something other than you wanted to, but that=
9;s <br>
how it is and you'll have to deal with it after toggling and finding ou=
t <br>
that you switched the damn thing back on again...<div><br>
<br>
cheers,<br>
<br>
dret.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
erik wilde | mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">=
[email protected]</a> - tel:<a href=3D"tel:%2B1-510-2061079" value=3D"+15=
102061079" target=3D"_blank">+1-510-2061079</a> |<br>
| UC Berkeley - School of Information (ISchool) |<br>
| <a href=3D"http://dret.net/netdret" target=3D"_blank">http://=
dret.net/netdret</a> <a href=3D"http://twitter.com/dret" target=3D"_blank">=
http://twitter.com/dret</a> |<br>
</div><p></p>
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<br>
<br>
<div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;"></div>
</div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class><br><br clear=3D"all"><div>=
<br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to=
send me a private message, see <a href=3D"https://keybase.io/timbray" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://keybase.io/timbray</a>)</div>
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