Re: plone multilingual

On 08/06/2013 10:47 AM, Dylan Jay wrote:
> On 06/08/2013, at 6:37 PM, robert rottermann <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 08/06/2013 10:12 AM, Dylan Jay wrote:
>>> On 06/08/2013, at 5:32 PM, Victor Fernandez de Alba <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> As Ramon pointed out previously in this thread, there is a work in progress with the idea of collective.alias in mind. Please check the branch lrf-type (https://github.com/plone/plone.app.multilingual/tree/lrf-type) on GitHub. There is a initial *working* implementation, but it has several drawbacks. Please, try it out.
>>> It wasn't clear that it used proxy objects, in fact it's not clear how it works. It only mentioned "traversal methods". Looking at the code didn't help me understand either.
>>> One thing his message did say was that it relied on a site structure with a canonical language content all being in the root and non-canonical languages being subfolders. This isn't so flexible as it means you must be careful to choose which is the canonical language before you start. You also can't mix and match this within the site. For example english might be the canonical language for most of the site, but there is a large FAQ section only in german. Should the FAQ section be excluded from the other languages should the site author want to include it without translating it?
>> If I understand you correctly that means, that the user should know when sHe creates the document whether it is to be used in more than one language, or whether it is used as a translation exclusively.
> They don't have to know when they create a document. You just need a way to sync one object or sub hierarchy of objects from one part of a site, to another part of the site (or sites). By sync I mean create a bunch of proxy objects that pull content canonical object. This synching action could be automatic or it could be done by a translator as a manual action. kind of a "Make this content available in all translations" button.
>
>> to my mind this is not a viable approach as the person creating a document probably does not want to be involved in such decision.
>> And, worse, it breaks the "plone way" of doing things.
> how so?
what I understood :

with a canonical language content all being in the root and non-canonical languages being subfolders

means that the user has to know where to put things.
Which would be a decision that is not "natural" plone wise.

robert
>
>> robert
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> V.
>>>>
>>>> Víctor Fernández de Alba
>>>> http://about.me/victorfernandezdealba
>>>> g+/Twitter/IRC: sneridagh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 9:27 AM, Dylan Jay <djay-n0pU0XVUApFWk0Htik3J/[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On 06/08/2013, at 5:15 PM, Ramon Navarro Bosch <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There are some inconvenients with that aproach:
>>>>>
>>>>> * How are you going to show on navigation the elements from other languages ?
>>>>>
>>>>> You have /fr/obj1 translated to /de/obj1 and it's not translated on en, you want to see the obj1 on /en/ navigation. Maybe a Navigation strategy would help on show this information. What object would be on /en/ ? the fr or the de ?
>>>>>
>>>>> The catalog patch is not the solution, I think that catalog patch should be removed (and I removed it from lrf-type branch), so I would avoid using it.
>>>>>
>>>>> * getLanguage method is used along all the code and adding a adding a fieldIndex will add complexity on different parts. It may lead to a problem, as really the object will be only on one language and you would need to know which is the real language and which are fallbacks. With the untranslatedLanguages vocabulary on pam/browser you can know which languages aren't translated for a object, with a new field index with that information we would be able to know which objects should be seen without changing the language index.
>>>> Have you considered something like collective.alias? When you create an object you have the option to sync it to all the other object folders and it creates a lightweight proxy object with the content coming from the original language. This is indexed and partakes in navigation. This works for folders too, except that all the contents are also proxy objects. Translation would involve replacing a proxy object with an actual object.
>>>> Without using proxy objects I can't see how you can get navigation and other things that use object access to work.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> R
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2013/8/6 robert rottermann <[email protected]>
>>>>> Hi there
>>>>> yesterday we where discussing how to support partially translated la nguages.
>>>>> This is NOT language neutral content.
>>>>>
>>>>> Use case:
>>>>> we have three languages de, fr, en
>>>>> now all content is created de and translated to fr.
>>>>> so no untranslated content exists.
>>>>> Some of the content is also translated to English.
>>>>>
>>>>> As things stand now, English will only see a very selected few elements (the translated ones) and has no way to know that there is also other content.
>>>>>
>>>>> So we came up with the idea that the language index should not be using a text index but a fieldindex, so a document could "be" in more that one language.
>>>>>
>>>>> The question now is:
>>>>> What problems would that provoke?
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks for your input.
>>>>>
>>>>> robert
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 08/05/2013 08:45 AM, Ramon Navarro Bosch wrote:
>>>>>> Hey,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is already a implementation on github (lrf-type) branch on pam/pm that implements in a simpler way a neutral language solution. Neutral content is stored on the root and on each language root folder their are mapped using the traversal methods. The problem was on catalog as they were using the same UUID , so we created on this cases a UUID-lang code for cataloging.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> R
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2013/8/5 Dylan Jay <djay-n0pU0XVUApFWk0Htik3J/[email protected]>
>>>>>> On 05/08/2013, at 3:15 PM, robert rottermann <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> today the zurich sprint starts and I intend to work with plone.multilingual
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> is there anything that needs special love?
>>>>>> The issue of having a partially translated site maybe? As far as I've been able to work out, this can't be done. ie. where it falls back to the neutral language version like LinguaPlone does.
>>>>>> I suspect to make that work something similar to collective.alias would have to be created?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>>> robert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 06/10/2013 09:51 AM, robert rottermann wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi there,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I start to use plone.multilingual in earnest.
>>>>>>>> Now there is an upcomming sprint in Zurich, Switzerland in and I think
>>>>>>>> of proposing plone.multilingual there as a topic.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No my questions:
>>>>>>>> What is the state of plone.multilingual?
>>>>>>>> I have the impression it is rather calm around it so I assume it is not
>>>>>>>> used too much.
>>>>>>>> Is this impression wrong? If yes, why is this so?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there some other multilingual tool that should be included in a
>>>>>>>> multilingual sprint topic?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> robert
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Ramon a.k.a bloodbare
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Ramon a.k.a bloodbare
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>>> Get your SQL database under version control now!
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>>> caught up. So what steps can you take to put your SQL databases under
>>> version control? Why should you start doing it? Read more to find out.
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Get your SQL database under version control now!
Version control is standard for application code, but databases havent 
caught up. So what steps can you take to put your SQL databases under 
version control? Why should you start doing it? Read more to find out.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48897031&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk