Re: plone multilingual

On 07/08/2013, at 12:26 AM, Ramon Navarro Bosch <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hey,
> 
> Sorry for the delay, I'm in the middle of music festival were I play and I can't be online at all times.
> 
> First, I see that there is a big interest on having a multilingual solution for partial translated sites. This is clearly not the goal of plone.app.multilingual, as its now. I've been always thinking about the two use cases : partial and complet separated content for each language. In my opinion, on big sites, it's clear that you are not going to have a mixure of languages on the same navigation view. So, for partial translated sites, we need a different solution. Maybe a different aproach, a diferent package would be a better solution. Something like a way to store translations as annotations, that there are'nt language folders... But both scenarios are so different that I can't see a good solution for both.
> 
> Second, collective.alias is a proof of concept that is full of problems and not stable. What I did on the lrf-type branch is override BTreeFolder objectIds and getId to get the content 

The idea was to have something like a proxy object, rather than actually using collective.alias.
ie 
/en/A
/fr/A(proxy of /en/A)
/de/A

In this case A is translated into both english and german but the french version is just the english version. Later if the french version is translated the proxy object would be removed and replaced by a proper object.  


> from the root of the site on the language root folders, so the content that is sotored on the root is showed and cataloged inside the langauge root folder as it's own. This allow to reorder the content, to edit it as one and see on navigation. Just is a bit hacky and may lead to some problems I can't see right now, and that's the reason is on a branch. In order to avoid problems with UUID unique index there is an adapter that adds the language where it's indexed with a language code at the end.

I haven't had a chance to try this yet. But it seems somewhat complex. If I understand it right, is the shared content all in a flat directory in the root? ie you can't have two things shared that have the same id?

> 
> I'll come back on 2 hours, and I'm on IRC if you need some help!
> 
> Ramon
> 
> 
> 2013/8/6 Victor Fernandez de Alba <[email protected]>
> Ramon did the implementation and although I've been in touch with him while he did it, I have not been involved with it. I can only say that the implementation works, but there are some annoyances that still needs to be solved. Ramon is on holidays right now, so I will try to explain it as I think there is no documentation about how it works, I will try to make a small summary:
> 
> Ramon took the idea of collective.alias to implement a proof of concept that resides on the lrf-type branch. These implementation assumes that the neutral content resides on the root site (with all its folders and subfolders) and it propagates using some of the techniques used in collective.alias (avoiding the more dirtiest ones ;)). The last time I've checked out it worked ootb.
> 
> However, there were some drawbacks that he will try to fix asap, however these work is still in progress. Maybe Ramon itself could shed some light on it whenever he can do it.
> 
> Cheers,
> V.
> 
> 
> 
> Víctor Fernández de Alba
> http://about.me/victorfernandezdealba
> g+/Twitter/IRC: sneridagh
> 
> 
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 10:14 AM, robert rottermann <[email protected]> wrote:
> viktor,
> 
> 
> On 08/06/2013 09:32 AM, Victor Fernandez de Alba wrote:
>> Hi,
>> As Ramon pointed out previously in this thread, there is a work in progress with the idea of collective.alias in mind. Please check the branch lrf-type (https://github.com/plone/plone.app.multilingual/tree/lrf-type) on GitHub. There is a initial *working* implementation, but it has several drawbacks. Please, try it out.
> what are the drawbacks?
> rr
> 
> 
>> Cheers,
>> V.
>> 
>> Víctor Fernández de Alba
>> http://about.me/victorfernandezdealba
>> g+/Twitter/IRC: sneridagh
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 9:27 AM, Dylan Jay <djay-n0pU0XVUApFWk0Htik3J/[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 06/08/2013, at 5:15 PM, Ramon Navarro Bosch <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 
>> > There are some inconvenients with that aproach:
>> >
>> > * How are you going to show on navigation the elements from other languages ?
>> >
>> > You have /fr/obj1 translated to /de/obj1 and it's not translated on en, you want to see the obj1 on /en/ navigation. Maybe a Navigation strategy would help on show this information. What object would be on /en/ ? the fr or the de ?
>> >
>> > The catalog patch is not the solution, I think that catalog patch should be removed (and I removed it from lrf-type branch), so I would avoid using it.
>> >
>> > * getLanguage method is used along all the code and adding a adding a fieldIndex will add complexity on different parts. It may lead to a problem, as really the object will be only on one language and you would need to know which is the real language and which are fallbacks. With the untranslatedLanguages vocabulary on pam/browser you can know which languages aren't translated for a object, with a new field index with that information we would be able to know which objects should be seen without changing the language index.
>> 
>> Have you considered something like collective.alias? When you create an object you have the option to sync it to all the other object folders and it creates a lightweight proxy object with the content coming from the original language. This is indexed and partakes in navigation. This works for folders too, except that all the contents are also proxy objects. Translation would involve replacing a proxy object with an actual object.
>> Without using proxy objects I can't see how you can get navigation and other things that use object access to work.
>> 
>> 
>> >
>> > R
>> >
>> >
>> > 2013/8/6 robert rottermann <[email protected]>
>> > Hi there
>> > yesterday we where discussing how to support partially translated la nguages.
>> > This is NOT language neutral content.
>> >
>> > Use case:
>> > we have three languages de, fr, en
>> > now all content is created de and translated to fr.
>> > so no untranslated content exists.
>> > Some of the content is also translated to English.
>> >
>> > As things stand now, English will only see a very selected few elements (the translated ones) and has no way to know that there is also other content.
>> >
>> > So we came up with the idea that the language index should not be using a text index but a fieldindex, so a document could "be" in more that one language.
>> >
>> > The question now is:
>> > What problems would that provoke?
>> >
>> > thanks for your input.
>> >
>> > robert
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 08/05/2013 08:45 AM, Ramon Navarro Bosch wrote:
>> >> Hey,
>> >>
>> >> There is already a implementation on github (lrf-type) branch on pam/pm that implements in a simpler way a neutral language solution. Neutral content is stored on the root and on each language root folder their are mapped using the traversal methods. The problem was on catalog as they were using the same UUID , so we created on this cases a UUID-lang code for cataloging.
>> >>
>> >> R
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 2013/8/5 Dylan Jay <djay-n0pU0XVUApFWk0Htik3J/[email protected]>
>> >> On 05/08/2013, at 3:15 PM, robert rottermann <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > today the zurich sprint starts and I intend to work with plone.multilingual
>> >> >
>> >> > is there anything that needs special love?
>> >>
>> >> The issue of having a partially translated site maybe? As far as I've been able to work out, this can't be done. ie. where it falls back to the neutral language version like LinguaPlone does.
>> >> I suspect to make that work something similar to collective.alias would have to be created?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > thanks
>> >> > robert
>> >> >
>> >> > On 06/10/2013 09:51 AM, robert rottermann wrote:
>> >> >> Hi there,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I start to use plone.multilingual in earnest.
>> >> >> Now there is an upcomming sprint in Zurich, Switzerland in and I think
>> >> >> of proposing plone.multilingual there as a topic.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> No my questions:
>> >> >> What is the state of plone.multilingual?
>> >> >> I have the impression it is rather calm around it so I assume it is not
>> >> >> used too much.
>> >> >> Is this impression wrong? If yes, why is this so?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Is there some other multilingual tool that should be included in a
>> >> >> multilingual sprint topic?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> thanks
>> >> >>
>> >> >> robert
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
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>> >> --
>> >> Ramon a.k.a bloodbare
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Ramon a.k.a bloodbare
>> 
>> 
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>> Get your SQL database under version control now!
>> Version control is standard for application code, but databases havent 
>> caught up. So what steps can you take to put your SQL databases under 
>> version control? Why should you start doing it? Read more to find out.
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> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get your SQL database under version control now!
> Version control is standard for application code, but databases havent
> caught up. So what steps can you take to put your SQL databases under
> version control? Why should you start doing it? Read more to find out.
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48897031&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Ramon a.k.a bloodbare
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get your SQL database under version control now!
> Version control is standard for application code, but databases havent 
> caught up. So what steps can you take to put your SQL databases under 
> version control? Why should you start doing it? Read more to find out.
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48897031&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk_______________________________________________
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