Re: [Board] Roadmap and Release schedule for Plone 5.2 and 6.0
"T. Kim Nguyen via Plone-installers" <plone-installers-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> Mon, 4 Mar 2019 15:57:03 -0600
| Newsgroups | gmane.comp.web.zope.plone.installers,gmane.comp.web.zope.plone.teams.framework |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--===============5285508986299647347== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DCFA0716-5979-4914-A529-41EF21CC614D" --Apple-Mail=_DCFA0716-5979-4914-A529-41EF21CC614D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Gil - community involvement is indeed a major component of this = release plan! It tries to address the circular problem of people not = testing until the release is out, and of not feeling comfortable making = a release without sufficient testing.=20 Now that you mention it, I can start pre-pushing that message out to the = forum, so people are aware this is what we will be asking them to do = (help testing). Kim > On Mar 4, 2019, at 3:49 PM, Gil Forcada Codinachs = <[email protected]> wrote: >=20 > When this rc1 is out, if we want to make more people test it, it might = be a good idea to state clearly, in bold, uppercase and whatnot, that it = is indeed rc, so no breaking features, no PLIP, etc will be added later. = We have a good track of doing so, which also might have helped on = creating this scenario. >=20 > =46rom a community/marketing/board point of view, it might be a good = idea to promote this final stage testing by making a sort of sane = competition, on who reports/fixes more issues etc and win some dummy = prizes to be awarded at the Conference in Ferrara to help push the final = release, or if a company is heavily involved, to get a spotlight = somewhere/reduce fees etc etc. >=20 > Which, also retrofitting, if we want the community to get more = involved, we should involve them from the very beginning not as an after = though when all decisions are made. One thing is doing marketing and for = that you need some strategy, ideas and a focused group of people to do = the job, but if we want to get the community involved in testing and = ensuring that we can get 5.2 is out, we have to be open and vocal on = that. >=20 > At least, by doing so, if we are open from the very beginning, we can = at least point to all the community.plone.org = <http://community.plone.org/> messages and call for actions, that no one = should complain about the final 5.2 status because we gave them enough = time. >=20 > Which, IMHO, should be with the roadmap. >=20 > But then again, that's my 0.2 cents. >=20 > Cheers, > Gil >=20 > Missatge de Philip Bauer <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> = del dia dl., 4 de mar=C3=A7 2019 a les 15:54: > Hi Teams! >=20 > We discussed the whole thing in a hangout and reached a consensus. >=20 > Here's what we decided: >=20 > - We will release Plone 5.2rc1 this week > - We will publish the roadmap = (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u_brtRx3lmw6-RORncZDJ59p_1bHaQEUENFb9= 1K5l24 = <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u_brtRx3lmw6-RORncZDJ59p_1bHaQEUENFb9= 1K5l24>) after some polishing this week. It is as usual not a law but a = condensed version of the ongoing discussion in the Plone community. > - We will invite all developers to a remote sprint on March 14 to test = and improve the Database-Migration documented in = https://github.com/plone/documentation/blob/5.2/manage/upgrading/version_s= pecific_migration/upgrade_to_python3.rst#database-migration = <https://github.com/plone/documentation/blob/5.2/manage/upgrading/version_= specific_migration/upgrade_to_python3.rst#database-migration> > - We will release Plone 5.2 final on March 30. The release-notes for = 5.2 may state (depending on the outcome of the above sprint) that the = Database-Migration von Python 2 to 3 may be not as stable as we'd like = them to be and that consecutive bugfix releases will address possible = issues. > - We will form a group from all teams to plan the release. It will = have a weekly hangout to coordinate and track progress. That will also = give us a forum to postpone the release if a real blocker may come up. >=20 > I'll personally try my best to test the Migration, work on the = Upgrade-Guide (already started this morning) and update the Mastering = Plone Training. If anyone has any issues either with missing docs, = broken features or such please create a ticket of contact me. >=20 > Cheers, > Philip >=20 > -- > Starzel.de > Philip Bauer > Dilsberger Stra=C3=9Fe 9 > 81245 M=C3=BCnchen > Tel: 089 - 189 29 533 > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > www.starzel.de <http://www.starzel.de/> >=20 > > Am 01.03.2019 um 11:06 schrieb Gil Forcada Codinachs = <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>: > >=20 > > Hi all, > >=20 > > as for the "until a final release is made nobody tests it" I have a = solution: let's wrap up the blockers for 5.2, make it final AND CLEARLY = LABEL that: > > - it is ONLY meant for new projects (i.e. migrations are still not = 100% guaranteed) > > - for BRAVE souls that want to try Python 3 > > - fine and dandy for python 2 projects > >=20 > > And now the marketing twist on it: see that the release will be 5.2 = ? When the migration/documentation/translations are on a better shape, = let's release that as 5.3 because it will be supporting python 3 just = fine (I guess the marketing team will have plenty of better ideas, but I = came up with that while reading these mails :D). > >=20 > > With my release team hat on: in the last month 2 PLIPs have been = merged (faster navigation and redirects control panel), which I have = seen quite a few follow up pull requests these last weeks, i.e. they = don't feel rock stable. On that same vein the i18n controlpanel = interface move from CMFPlone to plone.i18n is missing an upgrade step = (see = https://github.com/plone/Products.CMFPlone/pull/2769#issuecomment-46633563= 6 = <https://github.com/plone/Products.CMFPlone/pull/2769#issuecomment-4663356= 36>) > >=20 > > I admire and wholeheartedly support all the effort you all put in = porting the code and trying to keep up with keeping Jenkins happy, but = at the same time I can not feel comfortable making a release if we are = merging PLIPs and pull requests right and left without taking the extra = time to ensure all pieces are in place. > >=20 > > There are plenty of organizations that make odd releases as unstable = and even releases as stable. For quite a while we have labeled 4.3 as a = LTS release (we are already on 4.3.18!) so, as said above I would be = fine having 5.2 out as a final release but with a TP (Technology = Preview) or whatever label. > >=20 > > This way we have the best of both worlds: > > - the release is out and integrators can start their migration = projects (even though they could have done that before anyway with a = rc/beta/alpha...) > > - we clearly communicate that rough edges are still ahead > >=20 > > As for keeping the peace with making frequent releases, on the = release team we had a calendar to try to schedule 5.1/5.0/4.3 releases. = We can try to aim for a monthly release of 5.2 if no major surprises are = ahead but mostly bugfixes. On that front, we have a bus factor to make = final releases as only the release manager is able to push to = dist.plone.org <http://dist.plone.org/>. > >=20 > > The sysadmin team told us that with the new infra being set up all = the release team members will be able to push to dist.plone.org = <http://dist.plone.org/>, so if we can make that happen, we will be able = to increase the release frequency, and finally wish nice vacations to = the release manager while the other release team members handle = releases. > >=20 > > As for 6.0, in general I'm against roadmaps that are being discussed = by 2, 3 people and then thrown over the wall. What's the urgency of = having a 6.0 roadmap if we still haven't finished not only 5.2 but = specially all the database migration problems? I get the idea of = promising a bright future with super cool frontends, tune up backends = and adapters everywhere, but that can easily backfire (and it has = already happened, hello from Plone 5.0!) specially if you are adding = dates to those promises... > >=20 > > Sorry if it feels stop energy, I hope only this last 6.0 paragraph, = I provided a few options for 5.2, but that's my 0.2 cents on the matter = :-) > >=20 > > Side note: as soon as/before we release 5.2, please communicate in = advance if someone jumps and creates a 6.0/5.3 branch of = buildout.coredev/cmfplone and expects that mr.roboto/jenkins and all the = integrations are in place. AFAIK this is a release manager decision. I'm = not against it, just that I (or whoever wants to help) need to adjust = quite a few variables here and there and deploy new jenkins jobs and = what not. > >=20 > > Cheers, > > Gil > >=20 > > Missatge de Philip Bauer <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]>> del dia dv., 1 de mar=C3=A7 2019 a les 9:17: > > Good Morning! > >=20 > > I'm aware that is not my place to decide and that we need to agree = on a release-date. But unsurprisingly I disagree. I've stated multiple = times over the last year that a release-date of 5.2 early in 2019 is = critical. We were aiming for February, so we're already is month late = with the proposed date of 30.03.2019. > >=20 > > The reasoning behind a early release is not new: The Plone community = suffers from a severe case of hen-and-egg syndrome. Until a final = version is released nobody tests that new version. And once it is = released people complain that it was not tested properly. The only way = out of that is to release early and follow-up with bugfix-release as = soon as serious issues are found and fixed. > >=20 > > I'm certain that postponing the release by two month would not lead = to more testing. Why should people start testing migrations now when = they have not done it between November and now? Most people will only = test it when the release is out. > >=20 > > But with 5.2 we have even greater urgency. There are people and = organizations who are required to move to Python 3 by 1.1.2020. Giving = them as much of a head-start as possible by release 5.2 by the end of = march seems critical to me. > >=20 > > We urged time and time again that people should start planning and = testing their migrations to 5.2 and Python 3 asap. We tried to make it = as easy as possible and much more accessible that ever before: > >=20 > > * We created a nightly demo-buld of 5.2 coredev that was online = since May 2018 (http://demo-latest-py3.plone.org = <http://demo-latest-py3.plone.org/> and http://demo-latest-py2.plone.org = <http://demo-latest-py2.plone.org/>) > > * We documented how to test 5.2 in various Python versions. > > * We documented the migration to Python 3 in detail = (https://tinyurl.com/plonepy3 <https://tinyurl.com/plonepy3>). > >=20 > > There are still many things to do as Paul mentioned: > >=20 > > * Translations need to be updated. English and German seems ok, = others less so. > > * The migration-guide from 5.1 to 5.2 needs some work. I'm on it. > > * The porting-guide seems in a good state already. > > * The Installers need to be updated. > > * Marketing-Material and Newsitems needs to be prepared. The = document that Timo and I started could to help with that = (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u_brtRx3lmw6-RORncZDJ59p_1bHaQEUENFb9= 1K5l24 = <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u_brtRx3lmw6-RORncZDJ59p_1bHaQEUENFb9= 1K5l24>) > > * Parts of the documentation need to be updated. > >=20 > > None of this is a surprise. I don't see what should stop us from = finishing these tasks in time for March 30th. We should get our shit = together and do it. > >=20 > > Philip > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > > Am 01.03.2019 um 06:31 schrieb sven <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]>>: > > > > > > Hi ! > > > > > > Same here, well said ! > > > > > > I am only talking here about the documentation part, the current = state of the docs for 5.2 and 6 is far away from publishing. > > > > > > Also, since we are on it, I would like to ask where I can find = docs of Plone 6, like the new UI, etc. > > > > > > We started to rewrite and rebuild the whole docs from scratch, so = far this is working well and the quality, readability, etc improved a = lot. > > > > > > But since we have no idea what of the current docs will stay and = which parts will be different we just have some basic covered, yet. > > > > > > Please let us know (Open an issue) about docs of Plone 6. > > > > > > The same goes with with things like bobtemplates, will they worl = with Plone 6, should we adjust or remove them from the 'core' docs ? > > > > > > Thanks ! > > > > > > On Thu, 2019-02-28 at 22:20 +0100, Paul Roeland wrote: > > >> hi people, > > >> > > >> although it's not the role of the Board to direct the technical = direction of Plone, I do want to signal that I have serious concerns = about the proposed timeline for 5.2. > > >> Not only as a member of the Board, which has to keep an eye out = for marketing, but also as member of the documentation team. > > >> > > >> I think one month between having a RC1 and a final is way too = short. There is still a lot of polishing to be done, in (at least) the = areas of > > >> =E2=80=A2 documentation > > >> =E2=80=A2 translations > > >> =E2=80=A2 real-world testing of migrations to Python3 > > >> =E2=80=A2 development of installers that work for both = Python2 and Python3 > > >> =E2=80=A2 ... and probably more > > >> One of the criticisms that were uttered (not always in the nicest = way, but that's beside the point) is that we should do better at Quality = Assurance. That is also a marketing issue. > > >> > > >> So, while I fully support the idea of an ambitious to aggressive = timeline, and also that we should reach RC status (meaning no more new = features), I would strongly plead for more time, and a few RC releases. = And then do a final around, let's say, June 1. > > >> > > >> 5.2 is an important release; it has been argued that in terms of = effect it could have been a major release. Then, by all means, let's = take it serious enough so that we have satisfactory translations, = documentation, marketing messages, and a reasonably battle-tested = migration experience before we call it a Final. > > >> > > >> Paul Roeland > > >> > > >> (Note: I'm only arguing urgently for a slowdown on the 5.2 = release schedule. I like the ambition on the 6.0 schedule, although also = there I think we're going to need a longer polishing time to make sure = that we release with good translations, documentation, installing = instructions and the like. In general we just need some time between = feature-freeze and a good Quality-Assured release, with ribbons and = glitter around it) > > >> > > >> On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 12:39 PM Philip Bauer <[email protected] = <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Release-Schedule: > > >>> - rc1 next week > > >>> - final: 30.03.2019 > > >>> > > >>> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Plone-installers mailing list > > >> Plone-installers-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org = <mailto:Plone-installers-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> > > >> > > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-installers = <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-installers> > > >> > > > > >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Plone-installers mailing list > Plone-installers-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-installers --Apple-Mail=_DCFA0716-5979-4914-A529-41EF21CC614D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi = Gil - community involvement is indeed a major component of this release = plan! It tries to address the circular problem of people not testing = until the release is out, and of not feeling comfortable making a = release without sufficient testing. <div class=3D""><br = class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Now that you mention it, I can start = pre-pushing that message out to the forum, so people are aware this is = what we will be asking them to do (help testing).</div><div class=3D""><br= class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" = style=3D"white-space:pre"> </span>Kim<br class=3D""><div><br = class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Mar = 4, 2019, at 3:49 PM, Gil Forcada Codinachs <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" class=3D"">[email protected]</a>>= wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div = dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">When this rc1 is out, if we want = to make more people test it, it might be a good idea to state clearly, = in bold, uppercase and whatnot, that it is indeed rc, so no breaking = features, no PLIP, etc will be added later. We have a good track of = doing so, which also might have helped on creating this = scenario.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">=46rom= a community/marketing/board point of view, it might be a good idea to = promote this final stage testing by making a sort of sane competition, = on who reports/fixes more issues etc and win some dummy prizes to be = awarded at the Conference in Ferrara to help push the final release, or = if a company is heavily involved, to get a spotlight somewhere/reduce = fees etc etc.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">Which, also retrofitting, if we want the community to get = more involved, we should involve them from the very beginning not as an = after though when all decisions are made. One thing is doing marketing = and for that you need some strategy, ideas and a focused group of people = to do the job, but if we want to get the community involved in testing = and ensuring that we can get 5.2 is out, we have to be open and vocal on = that.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">At = least, by doing so, if we are open from the very beginning, we can at = least point to all the <a href=3D"http://community.plone.org/" = class=3D"">community.plone.org</a> messages and call for actions, that = no one should complain about the final 5.2 status because we gave them = enough time.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">Which, IMHO, should be with the roadmap.</div><div = class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But then again, that's = my 0.2 cents.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = class=3D"">Cheers,</div><div class=3D"">Gil<br class=3D""></div></div><br = class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" = class=3D"gmail_attr">Missatge de Philip Bauer <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> del = dia dl., 4 de mar=C3=A7 2019 a les 15:54:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote = class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px = solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Teams!<br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> We discussed the whole thing in a hangout and reached a consensus.<br = class=3D""> <br class=3D""> Here's what we decided:<br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> - We will release Plone 5.2rc1 this week<br class=3D""> - We will publish the roadmap (<a = href=3D"https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u_brtRx3lmw6-RORncZDJ59p_1bHaQ= EUENFb91K5l24" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u_brtRx3lmw6-RORncZDJ59p_1b= HaQEUENFb91K5l24</a>) after some polishing this week. It is as usual not = a law but a condensed version of the ongoing discussion in the Plone = community.<br class=3D""> - We will invite all developers to a remote sprint on March 14 to test = and improve the Database-Migration documented in <a = href=3D"https://github.com/plone/documentation/blob/5.2/manage/upgrading/v= ersion_specific_migration/upgrade_to_python3.rst#database-migration" = rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">https://github.com/plone/documentation/blob/5.2/manage/upgradin= g/version_specific_migration/upgrade_to_python3.rst#database-migration</a>= <br class=3D""> - We will release Plone 5.2 final on March 30. The release-notes for 5.2 = may state (depending on the outcome of the above sprint) that the = Database-Migration von Python 2 to 3 may be not as stable as we'd like = them to be and that consecutive bugfix releases will address possible = issues.<br class=3D""> - We will form a group from all teams to plan the release. It will have = a weekly hangout to coordinate and track progress. That will also give = us a forum to postpone the release if a real blocker may come up.<br = class=3D""> <br class=3D""> I'll personally try my best to test the Migration, work on the = Upgrade-Guide (already started this morning) and update the Mastering = Plone Training. If anyone has any issues either with missing docs, = broken features or such please create a ticket of contact me.<br = class=3D""> <br class=3D""> Cheers,<br class=3D""> Philip<br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> --<br class=3D""> <a href=3D"http://Starzel.de" class=3D"">Starzel.de</a><br class=3D""> Philip Bauer<br class=3D""> Dilsberger Stra=C3=9Fe 9<br class=3D""> 81245 M=C3=BCnchen<br class=3D""> Tel: 089 - 189 29 533<br class=3D""> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">[email protected]</a><br class=3D""> <a href=3D"http://www.starzel.de/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">www.starzel.de</a><br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> > Am 01.03.2019 um 11:06 schrieb Gil Forcada Codinachs <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">[email protected]</a>>:<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > Hi all,<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > as for the "until a final release is made nobody tests it" I have a = solution: let's wrap up the blockers for 5.2, make it final AND CLEARLY = LABEL that:<br class=3D""> > - it is ONLY meant for new projects (i.e. migrations are still not = 100% guaranteed)<br class=3D""> > - for BRAVE souls that want to try Python 3<br class=3D""> > - fine and dandy for python 2 projects<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > And now the marketing twist on it: see that the release will be 5.2 = ? When the migration/documentation/translations are on a better shape, = let's release that as 5.3 because it will be supporting python 3 just = fine (I guess the marketing team will have plenty of better ideas, but I = came up with that while reading these mails :D).<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > With my release team hat on: in the last month 2 PLIPs have been = merged (faster navigation and redirects control panel), which I have = seen quite a few follow up pull requests these last weeks, i.e. they = don't feel rock stable. On that same vein the i18n controlpanel = interface move from CMFPlone to plone.i18n is missing an upgrade step = (see <a = href=3D"https://github.com/plone/Products.CMFPlone/pull/2769#issuecomment-= 466335636" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">https://github.com/plone/Products.CMFPlone/pull/2769#issuecomme= nt-466335636</a>)<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > I admire and wholeheartedly support all the effort you all put in = porting the code and trying to keep up with keeping Jenkins happy, but = at the same time I can not feel comfortable making a release if we are = merging PLIPs and pull requests right and left without taking the extra = time to ensure all pieces are in place.<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > There are plenty of organizations that make odd releases as = unstable and even releases as stable. For quite a while we have labeled = 4.3 as a LTS release (we are already on 4.3.18!) so, as said above I = would be fine having 5.2 out as a final release but with a TP = (Technology Preview) or whatever label.<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > This way we have the best of both worlds:<br class=3D""> > - the release is out and integrators can start their migration = projects (even though they could have done that before anyway with a = rc/beta/alpha...)<br class=3D""> > - we clearly communicate that rough edges are still ahead<br = class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > As for keeping the peace with making frequent releases, on the = release team we had a calendar to try to schedule 5.1/5.0/4.3 releases. = We can try to aim for a monthly release of 5.2 if no major surprises are = ahead but mostly bugfixes. On that front, we have a bus factor to make = final releases as only the release manager is able to push to <a = href=3D"http://dist.plone.org/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">dist.plone.org</a>.<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > The sysadmin team told us that with the new infra being set up all = the release team members will be able to push to <a = href=3D"http://dist.plone.org/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">dist.plone.org</a>, so if we can make that happen, we will be = able to increase the release frequency, and finally wish nice vacations = to the release manager while the other release team members handle = releases.<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > As for 6.0, in general I'm against roadmaps that are being = discussed by 2, 3 people and then thrown over the wall. What's the = urgency of having a 6.0 roadmap if we still haven't finished not only = 5.2 but specially all the database migration problems? I get the idea of = promising a bright future with super cool frontends, tune up backends = and adapters everywhere, but that can easily backfire (and it has = already happened, hello from Plone 5.0!) specially if you are adding = dates to those promises...<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > Sorry if it feels stop energy, I hope only this last 6.0 paragraph, = I provided a few options for 5.2, but that's my 0.2 cents on the matter = :-)<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > Side note: as soon as/before we release 5.2, please communicate in = advance if someone jumps and creates a 6.0/5.3 branch of = buildout.coredev/cmfplone and expects that mr.roboto/jenkins and all the = integrations are in place. AFAIK this is a release manager decision. I'm = not against it, just that I (or whoever wants to help) need to adjust = quite a few variables here and there and deploy new jenkins jobs and = what not.<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > Cheers,<br class=3D""> > Gil<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > Missatge de Philip Bauer <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> del dia dv., 1 de = mar=C3=A7 2019 a les 9:17:<br class=3D""> > Good Morning!<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > I'm aware that is not my place to decide and that we need to agree = on a release-date. But unsurprisingly I disagree. I've stated multiple = times over the last year that a release-date of 5.2 early in 2019 is = critical. We were aiming for February, so we're already is month late = with the proposed date of 30.03.2019.<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > The reasoning behind a early release is not new: The Plone = community suffers from a severe case of hen-and-egg syndrome. Until a = final version is released nobody tests that new version. And once it is = released people complain that it was not tested properly. The only way = out of that is to release early and follow-up with bugfix-release as = soon as serious issues are found and fixed.<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > I'm certain that postponing the release by two month would not lead = to more testing. Why should people start testing migrations now when = they have not done it between November and now? Most people will only = test it when the release is out.<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > But with 5.2 we have even greater urgency. There are people and = organizations who are required to move to Python 3 by 1.1.2020. Giving = them as much of a head-start as possible by release 5.2 by the end of = march seems critical to me.<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > We urged time and time again that people should start planning and = testing their migrations to 5.2 and Python 3 asap. We tried to make it = as easy as possible and much more accessible that ever before:<br = class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > * We created a nightly demo-buld of 5.2 coredev that was online = since May 2018 (<a href=3D"http://demo-latest-py3.plone.org/" = rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">http://demo-latest-py3.plone.org</a> and <a = href=3D"http://demo-latest-py2.plone.org/" rel=3D"noreferrer" = target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">http://demo-latest-py2.plone.org</a>)<br = class=3D""> > * We documented how to test 5.2 in various Python versions.<br = class=3D""> > * We documented the migration to Python 3 in detail (<a = href=3D"https://tinyurl.com/plonepy3" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"= class=3D"">https://tinyurl.com/plonepy3</a>).<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > There are still many things to do as Paul mentioned:<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > * Translations need to be updated. English and German seems ok, = others less so.<br class=3D""> > * The migration-guide from 5.1 to 5.2 needs some work. I'm on = it.<br class=3D""> > * The porting-guide seems in a good state already.<br class=3D""> > * The Installers need to be updated.<br class=3D""> > * Marketing-Material and Newsitems needs to be prepared. The = document that Timo and I started could to help with that (<a = href=3D"https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u_brtRx3lmw6-RORncZDJ59p_1bHaQ= EUENFb91K5l24" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u_brtRx3lmw6-RORncZDJ59p_1b= HaQEUENFb91K5l24</a>)<br class=3D""> > * Parts of the documentation need to be updated.<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > None of this is a surprise. I don't see what should stop us from = finishing these tasks in time for March 30th. We should get our shit = together and do it.<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > Philip<br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> > > Am 01.03.2019 um 06:31 schrieb sven <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">[email protected]</a>>:<br class=3D""> > ><br class=3D""> > > Hi !<br class=3D""> > ><br class=3D""> > > Same here, well said !<br class=3D""> > ><br class=3D""> > > I am only talking here about the documentation part, the = current state of the docs for 5.2 and 6 is far away from publishing.<br = class=3D""> > ><br class=3D""> > > Also, since we are on it, I would like to ask where I can find = docs of Plone 6, like the new UI, etc.<br class=3D""> > ><br class=3D""> > > We started to rewrite and rebuild the whole docs from scratch, = so far this is working well and the quality, readability, etc improved a = lot.<br class=3D""> > ><br class=3D""> > > But since we have no idea what of the current docs will stay = and which parts will be different we just have some basic covered, = yet.<br class=3D""> > ><br class=3D""> > > Please let us know (Open an issue) about docs of Plone 6.<br = class=3D""> > ><br class=3D""> > > The same goes with with things like bobtemplates, will they = worl with Plone 6, should we adjust or remove them from the 'core' docs = ?<br class=3D""> > ><br class=3D""> > > Thanks !<br class=3D""> > ><br class=3D""> > > On Thu, 2019-02-28 at 22:20 +0100, Paul Roeland wrote:<br = class=3D""> > >> hi people,<br class=3D""> > >><br class=3D""> > >> although it's not the role of the Board to direct the = technical direction of Plone, I do want to signal that I have serious = concerns about the proposed timeline for 5.2.<br class=3D""> > >> Not only as a member of the Board, which has to keep an = eye out for marketing, but also as member of the documentation team.<br = class=3D""> > >><br class=3D""> > >> I think one month between having a RC1 and a final is way = too short. There is still a lot of polishing to be done, in (at least) = the areas of<br class=3D""> > >> =E2=80=A2 documentation<br class=3D""> > >> =E2=80=A2 translations<br class=3D""> > >> =E2=80=A2 real-world testing of = migrations to Python3<br class=3D""> > >> =E2=80=A2 development of installers = that work for both Python2 and Python3<br class=3D""> > >> =E2=80=A2 ... and probably more<br = class=3D""> > >> One of the criticisms that were uttered (not always in the = nicest way, but that's beside the point) is that we should do better at = Quality Assurance. That is also a marketing issue.<br class=3D""> > >><br class=3D""> > >> So, while I fully support the idea of an ambitious to = aggressive timeline, and also that we should reach RC status (meaning no = more new features), I would strongly plead for more time, and a few RC = releases. And then do a final around, let's say, June 1.<br class=3D""> > >><br class=3D""> > >> 5.2 is an important release; it has been argued that in = terms of effect it could have been a major release. Then, by all means, = let's take it serious enough so that we have satisfactory translations, = documentation, marketing messages, and a reasonably battle-tested = migration experience before we call it a Final.<br class=3D""> > >><br class=3D""> > >> Paul Roeland<br class=3D""> > >><br class=3D""> > >> (Note: I'm only arguing urgently for a slowdown on the 5.2 = release schedule. I like the ambition on the 6.0 schedule, although also = there I think we're going to need a longer polishing time to make sure = that we release with good translations, documentation, installing = instructions and the like. In general we just need some time between = feature-freeze and a good Quality-Assured release, with ribbons and = glitter around it)<br class=3D""> > >><br class=3D""> > >> On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 12:39 PM Philip Bauer <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br class=3D""> > >>><br class=3D""> > >>><br class=3D""> > >>> Release-Schedule:<br class=3D""> > >>> - rc1 next week<br class=3D""> > >>> - final: 30.03.2019<br class=3D""> > >>><br class=3D""> > >>><br class=3D""> > >> _______________________________________________<br = class=3D""> > >> Plone-installers mailing list<br class=3D""> > >> <a href=3D"mailto:Plone-installers-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org" = target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">Plone-installers-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org</a><br= class=3D""> > >><br class=3D""> > >> <a = href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-installers" = rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-installers</= a><br class=3D""> > >><br class=3D""> > ><br class=3D""> > <br class=3D""> <br class=3D""> </blockquote></div> _______________________________________________<br = class=3D"">Plone-installers mailing list<br class=3D""><a = href=3D"mailto:Plone-installers-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org" = class=3D"">Plone-installers-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org</a><br = class=3D"">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-installers<b= r class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>= --Apple-Mail=_DCFA0716-5979-4914-A529-41EF21CC614D-- --===============5285508986299647347== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline --===============5285508986299647347== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Plone-installers mailing list Plone-installers-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-installers --===============5285508986299647347==--