Re: [Board] Roadmap and Release schedule for Plone 5.2 and 6.0

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I=E2=80=99ve made the forum post =
https://community.plone.org/t/plone-5-2-release-testing-day-coming-up-marc=
h-14-2019-py-day/8164 an editable wiki so anyone can update instructions =
right there.

There is a registration form at =
https://plone.org/events/sprints/plone-5-2-release-testing-sprint/view=20=


The roadmap document has been published to =
https://plone.org/roadmap/2019-plone-roadmap=20

	Kim

> On Mar 10, 2019, at 2:18 PM, Philip Bauer <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
> Sorry for missing the meeting - timezones oh my!
>=20
> Yesterday I ported a Plone site from Plone 4.3 with Archetypes and =
LinguaPlone to Plone 5.2 on Python 3.7. The hardest part was getting rid =
of Archetypes and LinguaPlone. If your DB never had Archetypes and =
LinguaPlone it's probably much easier.
>=20
> The migration from AT to DX and from py2 to py3 were rather easy but =
the DB-Migration documentation is still terrible. I'll try to improve on =
the docs a little tomorrow
>=20
> I think having a rc1 release (ideally with the pinns from Zope 4.0b10) =
before the sprint on Thursday would be much better because it is a lot =
harder to run your own projects against the coredev than simply update =
to a released version.
>=20
> Philip
>=20
>> Am 10.03.2019 um 19:36 schrieb T. Kim Nguyen <nguyen-z4DKO/[email protected]>:
>>=20
>> Notes from today=E2=80=99s meeting (Eric, Paul, me): =
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u_brtRx3lmw6-RORncZDJ59p_1bHaQEUENFb91=
K5l24/edit#heading=3Dh.dbhfacl9z6ps
>>=20
>> In short: we are ready for the testing sprint on March 14; I will =
post the roadmap and update and publicize the testing sprint =
announcement.
>>=20
>> 	Kim
>>=20
>>> On Mar 4, 2019, at 4:11 PM, T. Kim Nguyen <nguyen-z4DKO/[email protected]> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> =
https://community.plone.org/t/plone-5-2-release-testing-day-coming-up-marc=
h-14-2019-py-day/8164
>>>=20
>>> My message to one of the above mailing lists got held for approval =
and maybe was rejected too.
>>>=20
>>> (Ah, ok, re-sent using my plone.org account)
>>>=20
>>> 	Kim
>>>=20
>>>> On Mar 4, 2019, at 3:57 PM, T. Kim Nguyen <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Gil - community involvement is indeed a major component of this =
release plan! It tries to address the circular problem of people not =
testing until the release is out, and of not feeling comfortable making =
a release without sufficient testing.
>>>>=20
>>>> Now that you mention it, I can start pre-pushing that message out =
to the forum, so people are aware this is what we will be asking them to =
do (help testing).
>>>>=20
>>>> 	Kim
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Mar 4, 2019, at 3:49 PM, Gil Forcada Codinachs =
<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> When this rc1 is out, if we want to make more people test it, it =
might be a good idea to state clearly, in bold, uppercase and whatnot, =
that it is indeed rc, so no breaking features, no PLIP, etc will be =
added later. We have a good track of doing so, which also might have =
helped on creating this scenario.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =46rom a community/marketing/board point of view, it might be a =
good idea to promote this final stage testing by making a sort of sane =
competition, on who reports/fixes more issues etc and win some dummy =
prizes to be awarded at the Conference in Ferrara to help push the final =
release, or if a company is heavily involved, to get a spotlight =
somewhere/reduce fees etc etc.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Which, also retrofitting, if we want the community to get more =
involved, we should involve them from the very beginning not as an after =
though when all decisions are made. One thing is doing marketing and for =
that you need some strategy, ideas and a focused group of people to do =
the job, but if we want to get the community involved in testing and =
ensuring that we can get 5.2 is out, we have to be open and vocal on =
that.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> At least, by doing so, if we are open from the very beginning, we =
can at least point to all the community.plone.org messages and call for =
actions, that no one should complain about the final 5.2 status because =
we gave them enough time.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Which, IMHO, should be with the roadmap.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> But then again, that's my 0.2 cents.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Gil
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Missatge de Philip Bauer <[email protected]> del dia dl., 4 de =
mar=C3=A7 2019 a les 15:54:
>>>>> Hi Teams!
>>>>>=20
>>>>> We discussed the whole thing in a hangout and reached a consensus.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Here's what we decided:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - We will release Plone 5.2rc1 this week
>>>>> - We will publish the roadmap =
(https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u_brtRx3lmw6-RORncZDJ59p_1bHaQEUENFb9=
1K5l24) after some polishing this week. It is as usual not a law but a =
condensed version of the ongoing discussion in the Plone community.
>>>>> - We will invite all developers to a remote sprint on March 14 to =
test and improve the Database-Migration documented in =
https://github.com/plone/documentation/blob/5.2/manage/upgrading/version_s=
pecific_migration/upgrade_to_python3.rst#database-migration
>>>>> - We will release Plone 5.2 final on March 30. The release-notes =
for 5.2 may state (depending on the outcome of the above sprint) that =
the Database-Migration von Python 2 to 3 may be not as stable as we'd =
like them to be and that consecutive bugfix releases will address =
possible issues.
>>>>> - We will form a group from all teams to plan the release. It will =
have a weekly hangout to coordinate and track progress. That will also =
give us a forum to postpone the release if a real blocker may come up.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I'll personally try my best to test the Migration, work on the =
Upgrade-Guide (already started this morning) and update the Mastering =
Plone Training. If anyone has any issues either with missing docs, =
broken features or such please create a ticket of contact me.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Philip
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --
>>>>> Starzel.de
>>>>> Philip Bauer
>>>>> Dilsberger Stra=C3=9Fe 9
>>>>> 81245 M=C3=BCnchen
>>>>> Tel: 089 - 189 29 533
>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>> www.starzel.de
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Am 01.03.2019 um 11:06 schrieb Gil Forcada Codinachs =
<[email protected]>:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> as for the "until a final release is made nobody tests it" I have =
a solution: let's wrap up the blockers for 5.2, make it final AND =
CLEARLY LABEL that:
>>>>>> - it is ONLY meant for new projects (i.e. migrations are still =
not 100% guaranteed)
>>>>>> - for BRAVE souls that want to try Python 3
>>>>>> - fine and dandy for python 2 projects
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> And now the marketing twist on it: see that the release will be =
5.2 ? When the migration/documentation/translations are on a better =
shape, let's release that as 5.3 because it will be supporting python 3 =
just fine (I guess the marketing team will have plenty of better ideas, =
but I came up with that while reading these mails :D).
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> With my release team hat on: in the last month 2 PLIPs have been =
merged (faster navigation and redirects control panel), which I have =
seen quite a few follow up pull requests these last weeks, i.e. they =
don't feel rock stable. On that same vein the i18n controlpanel =
interface move from CMFPlone to plone.i18n is missing an upgrade step =
(see =
https://github.com/plone/Products.CMFPlone/pull/2769#issuecomment-46633563=
6)
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I admire and wholeheartedly support all the effort you all put in =
porting the code and trying to keep up with keeping Jenkins happy, but =
at the same time I can not feel comfortable making a release if we are =
merging PLIPs and pull requests right and left without taking the extra =
time to ensure all pieces are in place.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> There are plenty of organizations that make odd releases as =
unstable and even releases as stable. For quite a while we have labeled =
4.3 as a LTS release (we are already on 4.3.18!) so, as said above I =
would be fine having 5.2 out as a final release but with a TP =
(Technology Preview) or whatever label.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> This way we have the best of both worlds:
>>>>>> - the release is out and integrators can start their migration =
projects (even though they could have done that before anyway with a =
rc/beta/alpha...)
>>>>>> - we clearly communicate that rough edges are still ahead
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> As for keeping the peace with making frequent releases, on the =
release team we had a calendar to try to schedule 5.1/5.0/4.3 releases. =
We can try to aim for a monthly release of 5.2 if no major surprises are =
ahead but mostly bugfixes. On that front, we have a bus factor to make =
final releases as only the release manager is able to push to =
dist.plone.org.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The sysadmin team told us that with the new infra being set up =
all the release team members will be able to push to dist.plone.org, so =
if we can make that happen, we will be able to increase the release =
frequency, and finally wish nice vacations to the release manager while =
the other release team members handle releases.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> As for 6.0, in general I'm against roadmaps that are being =
discussed by 2, 3 people and then thrown over the wall. What's the =
urgency of having a 6.0 roadmap if we still haven't finished not only =
5.2 but specially all the database migration problems? I get the idea of =
promising a bright future with super cool frontends, tune up backends =
and adapters everywhere, but that can easily backfire (and it has =
already happened, hello from Plone 5.0!) specially if you are adding =
dates to those promises...
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Sorry if it feels stop energy, I hope only this last 6.0 =
paragraph, I provided a few options for 5.2, but that's my 0.2 cents on =
the matter :-)
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Side note: as soon as/before we release 5.2, please communicate =
in advance if someone jumps and creates a 6.0/5.3 branch of =
buildout.coredev/cmfplone and expects that mr.roboto/jenkins and all the =
integrations are in place. AFAIK this is a release manager decision. I'm =
not against it, just that I (or whoever wants to help) need to adjust =
quite a few variables here and there and deploy new jenkins jobs and =
what not.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Gil
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Missatge de Philip Bauer <[email protected]> del dia dv., 1 de =
mar=C3=A7 2019 a les 9:17:
>>>>>> Good Morning!
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I'm aware that is not my place to decide and that we need to =
agree on a release-date. But unsurprisingly I disagree. I've stated =
multiple times over the last year that a release-date of 5.2 early in =
2019 is critical. We were aiming for February, so we're already is month =
late with the proposed date of 30.03.2019.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The reasoning behind a early release is not new: The Plone =
community suffers from a severe case of hen-and-egg syndrome. Until a =
final version is released nobody tests that new version. And once it is =
released people complain that it was not tested properly. The only way =
out of that is to release early and follow-up with bugfix-release as =
soon as serious issues are found and fixed.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I'm certain that postponing the release by two month would not =
lead to more testing. Why should people start testing migrations now =
when they have not done it between November and now? Most people will =
only test it when the release is out.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> But with 5.2 we have even greater urgency. There are people and =
organizations who are required to move to Python 3 by 1.1.2020. Giving =
them as much of a head-start as possible by release 5.2 by the end of =
march seems critical to me.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> We urged time and time again that people should start planning =
and testing their migrations to 5.2 and Python 3 asap. We tried to make =
it as easy as possible and much more accessible that ever before:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> * We created a nightly demo-buld of 5.2 coredev that was online =
since May 2018 (http://demo-latest-py3.plone.org and =
http://demo-latest-py2.plone.org)
>>>>>> * We documented how to test 5.2 in various Python versions.
>>>>>> * We documented the migration to Python 3 in detail =
(https://tinyurl.com/plonepy3).
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> There are still many things to do as Paul mentioned:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> * Translations need to be updated. English and German seems ok, =
others less so.
>>>>>> * The migration-guide from 5.1 to 5.2 needs some work. I'm on it.
>>>>>> * The porting-guide seems in a good state already.
>>>>>> * The Installers need to be updated.
>>>>>> * Marketing-Material and Newsitems needs to be prepared. The =
document that Timo and I started could to help with that =
(https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u_brtRx3lmw6-RORncZDJ59p_1bHaQEUENFb9=
1K5l24)
>>>>>> * Parts of the documentation need to be updated.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> None of this is a surprise. I don't see what should stop us from =
finishing these tasks in time for March 30th. We should get our shit =
together and do it.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Philip
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Am 01.03.2019 um 06:31 schrieb sven <[email protected]>:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Hi !
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Same here, well said !
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> I am only talking here about the documentation part, the current =
state of the docs for 5.2 and 6 is far away from publishing.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Also, since we are on it, I would like to ask where I can find =
docs of Plone 6, like the new UI, etc.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> We started to rewrite and rebuild the whole docs from scratch, =
so far this is working well and the quality, readability, etc improved a =
lot.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> But since we have no idea what of the current docs will stay and =
which parts will be different we just have some basic covered, yet.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Please let us know (Open an issue) about docs of Plone 6.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> The same goes with with things like bobtemplates, will they worl =
with Plone 6, should we adjust or remove them from the 'core' docs ?
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Thanks !
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On Thu, 2019-02-28 at 22:20 +0100, Paul Roeland wrote:
>>>>>>>> hi people,
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> although it's not the role of the Board to direct the technical =
direction of Plone, I do want to signal that I have serious concerns =
about the proposed timeline for 5.2.
>>>>>>>> Not only as a member of the Board, which has to keep an eye out =
for marketing, but also as member of the documentation team.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> I think one month between having a RC1 and a final is way too =
short. There is still a lot of polishing to be done, in (at least) the =
areas of
>>>>>>>>     =E2=80=A2 documentation
>>>>>>>>     =E2=80=A2 translations
>>>>>>>>     =E2=80=A2 real-world testing of migrations to Python3
>>>>>>>>     =E2=80=A2 development of installers that work for both =
Python2 and Python3
>>>>>>>>     =E2=80=A2 ... and probably more
>>>>>>>> One of the criticisms that were uttered (not always in the =
nicest way, but that's beside the point) is that we should do better at =
Quality Assurance. That is also a marketing issue.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> So, while I fully support the idea of an ambitious to =
aggressive timeline, and also that we should reach RC status (meaning no =
more new features), I would strongly plead for more time, and a few RC =
releases. And then do a final around, let's say, June 1.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> 5.2 is an important release; it has been argued that in terms =
of effect it could have been a major release. Then, by all means, let's =
take it serious enough so that we have satisfactory translations, =
documentation, marketing messages, and a reasonably battle-tested =
migration experience before we call it a Final.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Paul Roeland
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> (Note: I'm only arguing urgently for a slowdown on the 5.2 =
release schedule. I like the ambition on the 6.0 schedule, although also =
there I think we're going to need a longer polishing time to make sure =
that we release with good translations, documentation, installing =
instructions and the like. In general we just need some time between =
feature-freeze and a good Quality-Assured release, with ribbons and =
glitter around it)
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 12:39 PM Philip Bauer =
<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Release-Schedule:
>>>>>>>>> - rc1 next week
>>>>>>>>> - final: 30.03.2019
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Plone-installers mailing list
>>>>>>>> Plone-installers-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-installers
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Plone-installers mailing list
>>>>> Plone-installers-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-installers
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/plone-board =
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve made the forum post&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://community.plone.org/t/plone-5-2-release-testing-day-coming=
-up-march-14-2019-py-day/8164" =
class=3D"">https://community.plone.org/t/plone-5-2-release-testing-day-com=
ing-up-march-14-2019-py-day/8164</a> an editable wiki so anyone can =
update instructions right there.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">There is a registration form at&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://plone.org/events/sprints/plone-5-2-release-testing-sprint/=
view" =
class=3D"">https://plone.org/events/sprints/plone-5-2-release-testing-spri=
nt/view</a>&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The roadmap document has been published to&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://plone.org/roadmap/2019-plone-roadmap" =
class=3D"">https://plone.org/roadmap/2019-plone-roadmap</a>&nbsp;</div><di=
v class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Kim<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Mar 10, 2019, at 2:18 PM, Philip Bauer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" class=3D"">[email protected]</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Sorry for missing the meeting - =
timezones oh my!</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Yesterday I ported a Plone site from Plone 4.3 with =
Archetypes and LinguaPlone to Plone 5.2 on Python 3.7. The hardest part =
was getting rid of Archetypes and LinguaPlone. If your DB never had =
Archetypes and LinguaPlone it's probably much easier.</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">The migration from AT to DX and =
from py2 to py3 were rather easy but the DB-Migration documentation is =
still terrible. I'll try to improve on the docs a little =
tomorrow</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">I think =
having a rc1 release (ideally with the pinns from Zope 4.0b10) before =
the sprint on Thursday would be much better because it is a lot harder =
to run your own projects against the coredev than simply update to a =
released version.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Philip</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">Am 10.03.2019 um 19:36 schrieb T. Kim =
Nguyen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nguyen-z4DKO/[email protected]" =
class=3D"">nguyen-z4DKO/[email protected]</a>&gt;:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Notes =
from today=E2=80=99s meeting (Eric, Paul, me): <a =
href=3D"https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u_brtRx3lmw6-RORncZDJ59p_1bHaQ=
EUENFb91K5l24/edit#heading=3Dh.dbhfacl9z6ps" =
class=3D"">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u_brtRx3lmw6-RORncZDJ59p_1b=
HaQEUENFb91K5l24/edit#heading=3Dh.dbhfacl9z6ps</a><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">In short: we are ready for the testing sprint on March 14; I =
will post the roadmap and update and publicize the testing sprint =
announcement.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span>Kim<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Mar 4, 2019, at 4:11 =
PM, T. Kim Nguyen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nguyen-z4DKO/[email protected]" =
class=3D"">nguyen-z4DKO/[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><a=
 =
href=3D"https://community.plone.org/t/plone-5-2-release-testing-day-coming=
-up-march-14-2019-py-day/8164" =
class=3D"">https://community.plone.org/t/plone-5-2-release-testing-day-com=
ing-up-march-14-2019-py-day/8164</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">My =
message to one of the above mailing lists got held for approval and =
maybe was rejected too.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">(Ah, ok, re-sent =
using my plone.org account)<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span>Kim<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Mar 4, =
2019, at 3:57 PM, T. Kim Nguyen &lt;[email protected]&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hi Gil - community involvement is indeed a =
major component of this release plan! It tries to address the circular =
problem of people not testing until the release is out, and of not =
feeling comfortable making a release without sufficient testing.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Now that you mention it, I can start =
pre-pushing that message out to the forum, so people are aware this is =
what we will be asking them to do (help testing).<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">	=
</span>Kim<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">On Mar 4, 2019, at 3:49 PM, Gil Forcada Codinachs =
&lt;[email protected]&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">When =
this rc1 is out, if we want to make more people test it, it might be a =
good idea to state clearly, in bold, uppercase and whatnot, that it is =
indeed rc, so no breaking features, no PLIP, etc will be added later. We =
have a good track of doing so, which also might have helped on creating =
this scenario.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=46rom a =
community/marketing/board point of view, it might be a good idea to =
promote this final stage testing by making a sort of sane competition, =
on who reports/fixes more issues etc and win some dummy prizes to be =
awarded at the Conference in Ferrara to help push the final release, or =
if a company is heavily involved, to get a spotlight somewhere/reduce =
fees etc etc.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Which, also retrofitting, if =
we want the community to get more involved, we should involve them from =
the very beginning not as an after though when all decisions are made. =
One thing is doing marketing and for that you need some strategy, ideas =
and a focused group of people to do the job, but if we want to get the =
community involved in testing and ensuring that we can get 5.2 is out, =
we have to be open and vocal on that.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">At =
least, by doing so, if we are open from the very beginning, we can at =
least point to all the community.plone.org messages and call for =
actions, that no one should complain about the final 5.2 status because =
we gave them enough time.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Which, IMHO, =
should be with the roadmap.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">But then again, =
that's my 0.2 cents.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Cheers,<br =
class=3D"">Gil<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Missatge de Philip Bauer =
&lt;[email protected]&gt; del dia dl., 4 de mar=C3=A7 2019 a les =
15:54:<br class=3D"">Hi Teams!<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">We discussed =
the whole thing in a hangout and reached a consensus.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Here's what we decided:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">- We =
will release Plone 5.2rc1 this week<br class=3D"">- We will publish the =
roadmap =
(https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u_brtRx3lmw6-RORncZDJ59p_1bHaQEUENFb9=
1K5l24) after some polishing this week. It is as usual not a law but a =
condensed version of the ongoing discussion in the Plone community.<br =
class=3D"">- We will invite all developers to a remote sprint on March =
14 to test and improve the Database-Migration documented in =
https://github.com/plone/documentation/blob/5.2/manage/upgrading/version_s=
pecific_migration/upgrade_to_python3.rst#database-migration<br =
class=3D"">- We will release Plone 5.2 final on March 30. The =
release-notes for 5.2 may state (depending on the outcome of the above =
sprint) that the Database-Migration von Python 2 to 3 may be not as =
stable as we'd like them to be and that consecutive bugfix releases will =
address possible issues.<br class=3D"">- We will form a group from all =
teams to plan the release. It will have a weekly hangout to coordinate =
and track progress. That will also give us a forum to postpone the =
release if a real blocker may come up.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I'll =
personally try my best to test the Migration, work on the Upgrade-Guide =
(already started this morning) and update the Mastering Plone Training. =
If anyone has any issues either with missing docs, broken features or =
such please create a ticket of contact me.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Cheers,<br class=3D"">Philip<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">--<br=
 class=3D"">Starzel.de<br class=3D"">Philip Bauer<br class=3D"">Dilsberger=
 Stra=C3=9Fe 9<br class=3D"">81245 M=C3=BCnchen<br class=3D"">Tel: 089 - =
189 29 533<br class=3D"">[email protected]<br class=3D"">www.starzel.de<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Am =
01.03.2019 um 11:06 schrieb Gil Forcada Codinachs =
&lt;[email protected]&gt;:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hi all,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">as for the "until a final release is made =
nobody tests it" I have a solution: let's wrap up the blockers for 5.2, =
make it final AND CLEARLY LABEL that:<br class=3D"">- it is ONLY meant =
for new projects (i.e. migrations are still not 100% guaranteed)<br =
class=3D"">- for BRAVE souls that want to try Python 3<br class=3D"">- =
fine and dandy for python 2 projects<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">And =
now the marketing twist on it: see that the release will be 5.2 ? When =
the migration/documentation/translations are on a better shape, let's =
release that as 5.3 because it will be supporting python 3 just fine (I =
guess the marketing team will have plenty of better ideas, but I came up =
with that while reading these mails :D).<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">With=
 my release team hat on: in the last month 2 PLIPs have been merged =
(faster navigation and redirects control panel), which I have seen quite =
a few follow up pull requests these last weeks, i.e. they don't feel =
rock stable. On that same vein the i18n controlpanel interface move from =
CMFPlone to plone.i18n is missing an upgrade step (see =
https://github.com/plone/Products.CMFPlone/pull/2769#issuecomment-46633563=
6)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I admire and wholeheartedly support all =
the effort you all put in porting the code and trying to keep up with =
keeping Jenkins happy, but at the same time I can not feel comfortable =
making a release if we are merging PLIPs and pull requests right and =
left without taking the extra time to ensure all pieces are in place.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">There are plenty of organizations that make =
odd releases as unstable and even releases as stable. For quite a while =
we have labeled 4.3 as a LTS release (we are already on 4.3.18!) so, as =
said above I would be fine having 5.2 out as a final release but with a =
TP (Technology Preview) or whatever label.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">This way we have the best of both worlds:<br class=3D"">- the =
release is out and integrators can start their migration projects (even =
though they could have done that before anyway with a =
rc/beta/alpha...)<br class=3D"">- we clearly communicate that rough =
edges are still ahead<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">As for keeping the =
peace with making frequent releases, on the release team we had a =
calendar to try to schedule 5.1/5.0/4.3 releases. We can try to aim for =
a monthly release of 5.2 if no major surprises are ahead but mostly =
bugfixes. On that front, we have a bus factor to make final releases as =
only the release manager is able to push to dist.plone.org.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">The sysadmin team told us that with the new =
infra being set up all the release team members will be able to push to =
dist.plone.org, so if we can make that happen, we will be able to =
increase the release frequency, and finally wish nice vacations to the =
release manager while the other release team members handle releases.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">As for 6.0, in general I'm against roadmaps =
that are being discussed by 2, 3 people and then thrown over the wall. =
What's the urgency of having a 6.0 roadmap if we still haven't finished =
not only 5.2 but specially all the database migration problems? I get =
the idea of promising a bright future with super cool frontends, tune up =
backends and adapters everywhere, but that can easily backfire (and it =
has already happened, hello from Plone 5.0!) specially if you are adding =
dates to those promises...<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Sorry if it =
feels stop energy, I hope only this last 6.0 paragraph, I provided a few =
options for 5.2, but that's my 0.2 cents on the matter :-)<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Side note: as soon as/before we release 5.2, =
please communicate in advance if someone jumps and creates a 6.0/5.3 =
branch of buildout.coredev/cmfplone and expects that mr.roboto/jenkins =
and all the integrations are in place. AFAIK this is a release manager =
decision. I'm not against it, just that I (or whoever wants to help) =
need to adjust quite a few variables here and there and deploy new =
jenkins jobs and what not.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Cheers,<br =
class=3D"">Gil<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Missatge de Philip Bauer =
&lt;[email protected]&gt; del dia dv., 1 de mar=C3=A7 2019 a les 9:17:<br =
class=3D"">Good Morning!<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I'm aware that is =
not my place to decide and that we need to agree on a release-date. But =
unsurprisingly I disagree. I've stated multiple times over the last year =
that a release-date of 5.2 early in 2019 is critical. We were aiming for =
February, so we're already is month late with the proposed date of =
30.03.2019.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The reasoning behind a early =
release is not new: The Plone community suffers from a severe case of =
hen-and-egg syndrome. Until a final version is released nobody tests =
that new version. And once it is released people complain that it was =
not tested properly. The only way out of that is to release early and =
follow-up with bugfix-release as soon as serious issues are found and =
fixed.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I'm certain that postponing the =
release by two month would not lead to more testing. Why should people =
start testing migrations now when they have not done it between November =
and now? Most people will only test it when the release is out.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">But with 5.2 we have even greater urgency. =
There are people and organizations who are required to move to Python 3 =
by 1.1.2020. Giving them as much of a head-start as possible by release =
5.2 by the end of march seems critical to me.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">We urged time and time again that people should start =
planning and testing their migrations to 5.2 and Python 3 asap. We tried =
to make it as easy as possible and much more accessible that ever =
before:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">* We created a nightly demo-buld of =
5.2 coredev that was online since May 2018 =
(http://demo-latest-py3.plone.org and =
http://demo-latest-py2.plone.org)<br class=3D"">* We documented how to =
test 5.2 in various Python versions.<br class=3D"">* We documented the =
migration to Python 3 in detail (https://tinyurl.com/plonepy3).<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">There are still many things to do as Paul =
mentioned:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">* Translations need to be =
updated. English and German seems ok, others less so.<br class=3D"">* =
The migration-guide from 5.1 to 5.2 needs some work. I'm on it.<br =
class=3D"">* The porting-guide seems in a good state already.<br =
class=3D"">* The Installers need to be updated.<br class=3D"">* =
Marketing-Material and Newsitems needs to be prepared. The document that =
Timo and I started could to help with that =
(https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u_brtRx3lmw6-RORncZDJ59p_1bHaQEUENFb9=
1K5l24)<br class=3D"">* Parts of the documentation need to be =
updated.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">None of this is a surprise. I =
don't see what should stop us from finishing these tasks in time for =
March 30th. We should get our shit together and do it.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Philip<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Am 01.03.2019 um 06:31 =
schrieb sven &lt;[email protected]&gt;:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hi !<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Same here, well said !<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">I am only talking here about the documentation part, the =
current state of the docs for 5.2 and 6 is far away from publishing.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Also, since we are on it, I would like to ask =
where I can find docs of Plone 6, like the new UI, etc.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">We started to rewrite and rebuild the whole docs from =
scratch, so far this is working well and the quality, readability, etc =
improved a lot.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">But since we have no idea =
what of the current docs will stay and which parts will be different we =
just have some basic covered, yet.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Please =
let us know (Open an issue) about docs of Plone 6.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">The same goes with with things like bobtemplates, will they =
worl with Plone 6, should we adjust or remove them from the 'core' docs =
?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thanks !<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On =
Thu, 2019-02-28 at 22:20 +0100, Paul Roeland wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">hi people,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">although it's not the role of the Board to =
direct the technical direction of Plone, I do want to signal that I have =
serious concerns about the proposed timeline for 5.2.<br class=3D"">Not =
only as a member of the Board, which has to keep an eye out for =
marketing, but also as member of the documentation team.<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">I think one month between having a RC1 and a final is way =
too short. There is still a lot of polishing to be done, in (at least) =
the areas of<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=E2=80=A2 =
documentation<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=E2=80=A2 =
translations<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=E2=80=A2 real-world =
testing of migrations to Python3<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=E2=
=80=A2 development of installers that work for both Python2 and =
Python3<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=E2=80=A2 ... and probably =
more<br class=3D"">One of the criticisms that were uttered (not always =
in the nicest way, but that's beside the point) is that we should do =
better at Quality Assurance. That is also a marketing issue.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">So, while I fully support the idea of an =
ambitious to aggressive timeline, and also that we should reach RC =
status (meaning no more new features), I would strongly plead for more =
time, and a few RC releases. And then do a final around, let's say, June =
1.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">5.2 is an important release; it has been =
argued that in terms of effect it could have been a major release. Then, =
by all means, let's take it serious enough so that we have satisfactory =
translations, documentation, marketing messages, and a reasonably =
battle-tested migration experience before we call it a Final.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Paul Roeland<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">(Note:=
 I'm only arguing urgently for a slowdown on the 5.2 release schedule. I =
like the ambition on the 6.0 schedule, although also there I think we're =
going to need a longer polishing time to make sure that we release with =
good translations, documentation, installing instructions and the like. =
In general we just need some time between feature-freeze and a good =
Quality-Assured release, with ribbons and glitter around it)<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 12:39 PM Philip Bauer =
&lt;[email protected]&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Release-Schedule:<br class=3D"">-=
 rc1 next week<br class=3D"">- final: 30.03.2019<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br=
 class=3D"">Plone-installers mailing list<br =
class=3D"">Plone-installers-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-installers<b=
r class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br =
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r class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
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